The Sublime Saboteur: Shinobi

[heretic888]

4-20-08

• The visual layout of the class (including the two tables) has been significantly altered so that it is more concise and user friendly.
• Chain, kaginawa, and kusarigama have been removed from the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. Blowgun, jitte, naginata, composite shortbow, and short sword have been added to the shinobi's weapon proficiencies.
• It now costs an immediate action for shinobi to recover an expended maneuver and they may not initiate a maneuver nor change their stance while doing so.
• The shinobi's AC bonus is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. This was done to reduce the class dependency on Wisdom, as well as to further distinguish it from the swordsage.
• Dawn's shield, diamond will, opportunity's edge, and hidden strike are no longer capped by your Charisma bonus. In addition, opportunity's edge and hidden strike no longer have weapon prerequisites for their use.
• Dawn's shield now grants an AC bonus against all attacks instead of just attacks of opportunity.
• Adaptive path has been removed and replaced with adaptive stance at 8th and 16th level.
• The save DCs for the shifting blow, stunning blow, and veiled strike maneuvers are now keyed to Dexterity instead of Wisdom.
• The bonus damage for the flowing strike, strike of subtlety, and body and weapon are one maneuvers is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, the damage multipliers for strike of subtlety and body and weapon are one have been increased to reflect appropriate numbers for their respective levels.
• The bonus from the moving target stance is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, this stance now allows you to ignore the associated penalties for accelerated tumbling.

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback and contributions so far.

Laterz.

 

[Arkhandus]

Sorry, too busy lately to review the newer changes or anything, and never got around to looking over some of the stuff to begin with.

Half of these I don't recognize, but the bold ones I do recognize and they don't fit. Chains are too strong to be given away for free, and "knight" weapons (katana & wakazishi) are suited to a totally different social class. Suggestion: Simple weapons, plus ninja-to, kama, shuriken, nunchuku and sai. Basically, Monk weapons plus ninja-to (which has "ninja" right in its name) Maybe throw in the hand crossbow (for cool). Bows were a classy weapon, though. Don't give those away for free.

He misspelled kawanaga, a chainlike weapon from Oriental Adventures. That's where the chain (aka manriki gusari), shikomi-zue, ninja-to, nekode, and other stuff came from. I agree though about the chain being something they should have to spend a feat for as normal, and same for probably one or two other weapons there.

The shikomi-zue is fitting enough, a sword hidden within a cane/staff. Nekode and ninja-to should be automatic ninja proficiencies, they're the most iconic ninja weapons (nekode are like brass knuckles for the palms, made for climbing, clawing, and catching weapons, rather than punching). Katana and wakizashi are definitely too samurai in nature for a ninja to get as automatic proficiencies, and bows are more of a samurai or priestly weapon too, though Rogues get shortbows as a free proficiency. Shinobi would probably rely on more concealable weaopns though.

Two free feats?

Well, to be fair, Improved Unarmed Strike pretty well sucks; you can punch people without an AoO, and that's all it does for you. Unlike the D20 Modern unarmed combat feats. Fighters effectively get a bunch of armor and weapon and shield proficiency feats for free. Monks get IUS and another bonus feat, plus a few weapon proficiencies. IUS is kind of more like a proficiency anyway, because all it does is allow you to make unarmed strikes without a penalty (the penalty being, an opponent stabbing you in the face with an AoO....).

So basically, you're encouraging people to only ever take one path.

Yeah, wierd. Fairly certain that wasn't there when I first reviewed the class.

So you can't ever join (or found) a new clan? Kinda boring, don't you think?

Also wierd. You'd think a master Shinobi could at least found his own clan after mastering everything his sensei taught him, if that Shinobi happened to turn rogue, or if the clan was just planning to spread to other lands or something.

Don't have time for more right now.

 

[Nifft]

4-20-08

• Chain, kaginawa, and kusarigama have been removed from the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. Blowgun, jitte, naginata, composite shortbow, and short sword have been added to the shinobi's weapon proficiencies.
• It now costs an immediate action for shinobi to recover an expended maneuver and they may not initiate a maneuver nor change their stance while doing so.

Your ninjae get to keep proficiency with katanas (bastard swords)?

Second: I don't think you understand how Immediate actions work. There's no difference between pricing recovery as an Immediate or Swift action, if the PC isn't allowed to initiate a maneuver that same round. (There is a Diamond Mind stance which gives extra Immediate actions, but that's the only case where the difference between Swift and Immediate matters, and you've precluded that case explicitly.) I think you're trying to use the same mechanic as the Warblade, and I'd say just steal it directly: you recover maneuvers when you take a Swift action and then ... do something that's not a Maneuver.

4-20-08

• The shinobi's AC bonus is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. This was done to reduce the class dependency on Wisdom, as well as to further distinguish it from the swordsage.
• The save DCs for the shifting blow, stunning blow, and veiled strike maneuvers are now keyed to Dexterity instead of Wisdom.
• The bonus damage for the flowing strike, strike of subtlety, and body and weapon are one maneuvers is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, the damage multipliers for strike of subtlety and body and weapon are one have been increased to reflect appropriate numbers for their respective levels.
• The bonus from the moving target stance is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, this stance now allows you to ignore the associated penalties for accelerated tumbling.

Why Charisma and not Intelligence? I always pictured ninjae as more tricksy than leaderly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[heretic888]

Sorry, too busy lately to review the newer changes or anything, and never got around to looking over some of the stuff to begin with.

Hi Arkhandus,

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts about the class.

He misspelled kawanaga, a chainlike weapon from Oriental Adventures. That's where the chain (aka manriki gusari), shikomi-zue, ninja-to, nekode, and other stuff came from. I agree though about the chain being something they should have to spend a feat for as normal, and same for probably one or two other weapons there.

Yes, that's why I removed kawanaga, chain, and kusari-gama from the shinobi's weapon proficiencies list.

The shikomi-zue is fitting enough, a sword hidden within a cane/staff. Nekode and ninja-to should be automatic ninja proficiencies, they're the most iconic ninja weapons (nekode are like brass knuckles for the palms, made for climbing, clawing, and catching weapons, rather than punching). Katana and wakizashi are definitely too samurai in nature for a ninja to get as automatic proficiencies, and bows are more of a samurai or priestly weapon too, though Rogues get shortbows as a free proficiency. Shinobi would probably rely on more concealable weaopns though.

Okay, this is something I wanted to address earlier but have only now had a chance to.

Now, I should preface by saying that while the shinobi is inspired by historical ninja (specifically, groups like the Iga-no-mono), it is not actually beholden to them in any sort of representational fashion. That being said, this dichotomy between "ninja" and "samurai" is historically vacuous. The "ninja" of Iga and Koga were land-owning jizamurai families that were spoken of in reverential terms by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates. Some of the larger families, such as the Hattori and Momochi, were the equivalent of minor daimyo in their own lands.

Additionally, prior to the Edo Jidai, katana were freely available by just about anyone in Japan. There was no "ban" on their ownership prior to Toyotomi Hideyoshi's "sword hunt". Incidentally, rogues in Oriental Adventures are proficient with both wakizashi and shortbows.

In any event, ninja were well known for their use of hankyu ("half"-bows, or shortbows) and the Shoninki specifically advises its readers to carry "a long wakizashi" on stealth missions.

Well, to be fair, Improved Unarmed Strike pretty well sucks; you can punch people without an AoO, and that's all it does for you. Unlike the D20 Modern unarmed combat feats. Fighters effectively get a bunch of armor and weapon and shield proficiency feats for free. Monks get IUS and another bonus feat, plus a few weapon proficiencies. IUS is kind of more like a proficiency anyway, because all it does is allow you to make unarmed strikes without a penalty (the penalty being, an opponent stabbing you in the face with an AoO....).

Exactly.

The entire 'veiled weaponry' class feature is designed to make suboptimal weapon choices --- unarmed strikes (1d3), daggers (1d4), gauntlets (1d3), etc --- a little bit more viable at 1st level. I'd say its closer to 1 crappy feat and 1/4 of a decent feat.

Yeah, wierd. Fairly certain that wasn't there when I first reviewed the class.

It wasn't.

I have, however, replaced it with the 'adaptive stance' class feature which allows a shinobi to adopt a stance from one particular discipline as a free action once per round. It should be a useful ability for both path "purists" and path "dabblers".

Also wierd. You'd think a master Shinobi could at least found his own clan after mastering everything his sensei taught him, if that Shinobi happened to turn rogue, or if the clan was just planning to spread to other lands or something.

I will readily admit the code of conduct is the part of the class I have spent the least amount of time and thought correcting. That really wasn't the intent of the code (I don't really see founding a new "clan" or "school" as a betrayal per se) and I will probably provide some exceptions when I get around to it.

Don't have time for more right now.

Thanks again.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

Your ninjae get to keep proficiency with katanas (bastard swords)?

Hi Nifft,

Yes. See my response to Arkhandus above.

Second: I don't think you understand how Immediate actions work.

I do, actually.

There's no difference between pricing recovery as an Immediate or Swift action, if the PC isn't allowed to initiate a maneuver that same round.

There is one key difference. Swift actions can only be taken on your turn. Immediate actions can be taken anytime you qualify for the action (if, say, the shinobi hit a blinded or flat-footed opponent with an AoO).

(There is a Diamond Mind stance which gives extra Immediate actions, but that's the only case where the difference between Swift and Immediate matters, and you've precluded that case explicitly.)

Actually, if you began your turn in that stance or switched to that stance earlier in the round (which can be done as a free action with adaptive stance), then there is nothing stopping you from using both a counter and recovering a maneuver in the same round.

I think you're trying to use the same mechanic as the Warblade, and I'd say just steal it directly: you recover maneuvers when you take a Swift action and then ... do something that's not a Maneuver.

Its *similar* to the warblade's recovery method, but the main difference is a shinobi can recover a maneuver whenever he attacks a flat-footed target, whether with AoOs or some other attack.

Why Charisma and not Intelligence? I always pictured ninjae as more tricksy than leaderly.

Hrmmm.... well, the problem there is that Charisma is both "tricksy" and "leaderly".

Charisma is the key modifier for Bluff, Disguise, and Gather Information checks. Intelligence is the key modifier for, well, Knowledge checks and that's about it. I chose Charisma because of the shinobi's reliance on deception and misdirection in combat.

Cheers, -- N

Thanks for your suggestions.

Laterz.

 

[Nifft]

There is one key difference. Swift actions can only be taken on your turn. Immediate actions can be taken anytime you qualify for the action (if, say, the shinobi hit a blinded or flat-footed opponent with an AoO).

Actually, if you began your turn in that stance or switched to that stance earlier in the round (which can be done as a free action with adaptive stance), then there is nothing stopping you from using both a counter and recovering a maneuver in the same round.

Ah, I think I see. Are you saying this?

Recovery: When a shinobi strikes a flat-footed target with a normal attack (not a Strike or Counter), she may additionally recover one expended maneuver as an Immediate action.

That is different, but then I'd be very careful about feats like Gloomrazor.

Its *similar* to the warblade's recovery method, but the main difference is a shinobi can recover a maneuver whenever he attacks a flat-footed target, whether with AoOs or some other attack.

Okay, I think I see.

Cheers, -- N

 

[heretic888]

Ah, I think I see. Are you saying this?

Recovery: When a shinobi strikes a flat-footed target with a normal attack (not a Strike or Counter), she may additionally recover one expended maneuver as an Immediate action.

Hi Nifft,

Well, the current wording for the shinobi's maneuver recovery is the following:

Whenever you attack a target that is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you can recover one expended maneuver with an immediate action. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuver, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.​

Now, to me, this says pretty much the same thing as what you wrote, but I could be mistaken. Do you feel the wording is too ambiguous??

That is different, but then I'd be very careful about feats like Gloomrazor.

Gloom Razor provides good synergy for the shinobi's recovery method, yes, but even so it is still inferior to the warblade's (recover all expended maneuvers with a swift action + attack, target doesn't have to be flat-footed) and only slightly better than the swordsage's.

Laterz.

 

[Nifft]

Whenever you attack a target that is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you can recover one expended maneuver with an immediate action. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuver, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.​

Now, to me, this says pretty much the same thing as what you wrote, but I could be mistaken. Do you feel the wording is too ambiguous?

Well, if it wasn't ambiguous, I wouldn't have had to ask, right?

There are two things wrong with your phrasing:
1/ "Whenever you attack..." implies that any attack, including a Strike, could qualify.
2/ "You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance...", well of course. That's baiscally meaningless. You can't usually change your stance or initiate another maneuver as part of a different action. And of course you can remain in your Stance -- hardly anything ever forces you out of a Stance. It looks like you're just repeating stuff, when in fact you are trying to modify the previous sentence.

Gloom Razor provides good synergy for the shinobi's recovery method, yes, but even so it is still inferior to the warblade's (recover all expended maneuvers with a swift action + attack, target doesn't have to be flat-footed) and only slightly better than the swordsage's.

Warblade doesn't need a target. He can recover all his maneuvers as a swift + standard action. That said, he cannot spam the same maneuver two rounds in a row, which your class can. (If you look over the Martial Adepts, you'll see that NOBODY can reliably spam the same maneuver two rounds in a row.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[heretic888]

Well, if it wasn't ambiguous, I wouldn't have had to ask, right?

Hi Nifft,

I guess not.

1/ "Whenever you attack..." implies that any attack, including a Strike, could qualify.

The sentence following that one states you cannot initiate a maneuver while recovering your expended maneuver. Last time I checked, strikes were maneuvers.

2/ "You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance...", well of course. That's baiscally meaningless. You can't usually change your stance or initiate another maneuver as part of a different action.

The wording is to clarify that you cannot initiate a strike or a counter while recovering your expended maneuver. As it only costs an immediate action, you could theoretically do either since a) most strikes are standard actions and b) there is a Diamond Mind stance which allows you to initiate one counter per round as a free action.

Incidentally, the shinobi's adaptive stance class feature (gained at 8th and 16th level) allows him to adopt a stance from a chosen discipline once per round as a free action. So, he could theoretically change his stance while recovering an expended maneuver, as well.

However, the current wording prevents any of these theoretical situations from happening. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while recovering the expended maneuver.

It looks like you're just repeating stuff, when in fact you are trying to modify the previous sentence.

In truthfulness, I simply copied that wording from the last sentence of the warblade's recovery method in Tome of Battle.

Warblade doesn't need a target. He can recover all his maneuvers as a swift + standard action. That said, he cannot spam the same maneuver two rounds in a row, which your class can. (If you look over the Martial Adepts, you'll see that NOBODY can reliably spam the same maneuver two rounds in a row.)

The shinobi can't reliably spam the same maneuver two rounds in a row, either. The only way he could do so was if he could somehow repeatedly facilitate getting an AoO on a flat-footed, blinded, paralyzed, or stunned foe. Round after round. I don't think that is very probable or very reliable.

Cheers, -- N

Laterz.

 

[Nifft]

The sentence following that one states you cannot initiate a maneuver while recovering your expended maneuver. Last time I checked, strikes were maneuvers.

Oh, you're spot on with the word "maneuver". The word that's giving you trouble is "while".

The wording is to clarify that you cannot initiate a strike or a counter while recovering your expended maneuver. As it only costs an immediate action, you could theoretically do either since a) most strikes are standard actions and b) there is a Diamond Mind stance which allows you to initiate one counter per round as a free action.

"While" implies "at the same time", not "in the same round".

Recovering is an Immediate action, following an attack.

Since the attack occurs before the Immediate action to recover, there's no danger of this "while" coming between them. So your whole "while" clause can be read to be basically meaningless -- and that's the first reading I got.

- - -

Your recovery mechanism remains bad because:
1 - It's possible to spam the same maneuver round after round; but also
2 - it's possible to be in combat, and unable to recover. For example, if you can't reach your opponent, or you are between waves of attackers. No existing class has this problem.

Cheers, -- N