The Supplement Treadmill vs. The Alternatives

[buzz]

This business model is still followed by Chaosium and it is the way I like it.

Chaosium isn't a particularly good example of sound business strategy.

 

[buzz]

Savage Worlds is aimed at buys adults who have money but not time. The goal was design a game that was fast furious fun.

SW setting supplements are also designed with the assumption that you'll play through them in about a six-session arc and then move on to the next book. It's not expected that you'll buy a setting and then play it (and not buy anything else) for four years or whatever.

...but most "gamers" pick up "games" primarily to read them.

The supplement treadmill certainly relies on this assumption. WW's Changeling had spines that, if you collected all the books and put then on your shelf in release order, would reveal a big picture. I.e., the collectability of the books was as much a priority as their use for actually playing a game.

FWIW, I give WotC credit for focusing on supplements that are crunchy. Each book will likely have some little mechanical bit that you can use in your game. IMO, putting out lots of fluff-heavy setting material would be far more of a cop-out, as there's really no design and development effort required, and are much more obviously "supplements you buy to read" than useful tools.

 

[Imaro]

Savage Worlds is aimed at buys adults who have money but not time. The goal was design a game that was fast furious fun.

The interesting thing is that when you design a game to be played it makes for a bland read, but most "gamers" pick up "games" primarily to read them.

I gotta disagree with the first statement, why do you need "money"( and I'm assuming you meana this in the medium to large dispossable income sense) to get into a game like Savage Worlds or the White Wolf releases. If anything they seemed geared towards those who don't want to spend alot of money, and I for one like this new model as an option.

The Savage Worlds main book costs $29.99 same as one players handbook, and a complete setting book for it costs between $19.99 & $35.00. So at the low end you're spending around $50 while at the high end $65, still cheaper than the three core for D&D, and you have a complete game.

The White Wolf model of Scion is $34.99 for each of the three books, but they could actually be considered totally different games, depending on what level of power you want to play.

Scion: Hero for powerful mortal heroes( along the power lines of Perseus, Achilles, Sundiata, Beowulf etc.)
Scionemigod for semi-divine heroes(Hercules, Gilgamesh, Agassou, etc.)
Scion:God for well...gods.

So depending upon what power level you want to play at, the game can cost as little as $34.99 to play.

I really don't think these models are geard towards the money crowd. I think they're geared towards people who want a minimum of rules,beyond what is in the core, A complete game for a low price, and very little commitment to keep up with others that may play the game.

In D&D you join a new group and the variation in what rules are or aren't used, how many books are allowed, etc. can be staggering. The Scion and Savage Worlds games don't suffer from this, they're more focused. You may have a few house rules, but other than that you know what rules are in the game as long as you have the 2 to 3 books for the game line.

 

[buzz]

I think it was Mike Mearls who pointed out that "you don't need RPG companies". Past the initial set of core books, there's nothing much the game really needs. That's the dirty little open secret that everyone already knows.

IIRC, Mearls is also a proponent (w/r/t to turning a profit) of both "prestige" product and "tool" products. The former being books like Ptolus or the leatherette bound D&D books, i.e., expensive, high-production-value products that target the older fans who have more disposable income. The latter being stuff like DDM, FlipMats, Tact-Tiles, Area Templates, map tiles, etc; basically, useful tools that you can use in your game right now with zero effort.

I think it's very savvy of WotC (as well as Paizo) to have jumped on the latter. I know that I've been spending a lot more on products like the map tiles than I have supplements lately.

 

[buzz]

So depending upon what power level you want to play at, the game can cost as little as $34.99 to play.

You need to buy the nWoD core book, too.

I'm not sure how one can reconcile your point about "not needing money" with WW's standard release schedule. They practically invented the treadmill.

 

[Imaro]

You need to buy the nWoD core book, too.

I'm not sure how one can reconcile your point about "not needing money" with WW's standard release schedule. They practically invented the treadmill.

No you don't...It's a stand alone game, all the rules are in Scion: Hero. It's not even set in the nWoD.

Also, I'm specifically talking about the newer model they are trying with Scion as well as Promethean and Changeling(these lat two you do need the nWoD main book for, but they're still a "complete game" with a maximum of five books published for it.

 

[buzz]

No you don't...It's a stand alone game, all the rules are in Scion: Hero. It's not even set in the nWoD.

Ah, my apologies. I did not know this.

Is there any expectation, though, that you'd need all three Scion books to get "all" the rules?

 

[Imaro]

Ah, my apologies. I did not know this.

Is there any expectation, though, that you'd need all three Scion books to get "all" the rules?

The future books, to my limited knowledge so far, give you powers for higher level play. Characters have a "Legend rating" that defines, where on the mythological scale...Hero, Demigod or God they fall. If you want to play Higher powered characters than yes you would have to purchase the book for that level of play, but each level of play is fundamentally a different style of play.

Hero: Powerful, but still mortal, think along the lines of the Matrix movies, except without Neo. You battle the children of the Titans who have escaped their prison to have vengeance on the gods who placed them there, as well as Scions whose parent god's designs and maneuverings are against your own. Your battleground in this game is mostly modern earth and the mystical strangeness that has started seeping into it.

Demigod: Ramps the power up you have higher level powers that can only be gained through attaining a certain legend rating. You now can take the fight to the underworld and you're semi-divine. I'm thinking Neo at the end of the first and beginning of the second movie at this point. The enemies have grown more powerful and you can travel to a different plane of exsistence, but still aren't powerful enough to reach the homes of the gods. It is rumored that this book will contain at least one new pantheon of gods...but Scion: Hero does give guidelines for designing your own so it's not necessary. Personally I'm hoping for a Native American pantheon.

God: Not much has been released on this yet, but a few tidbits suggest...The gods are gone and you now have the power to take their place. Your character can now enter the very heavens and must finish the battle against the titans for good or ill. Powers are Neo and beyond in the second and third movies.

So really no "new rules" I'm aware of, but basically a ramping up of the powrs in Scion:Hero for higher level play.

 

[Dragon Snack]

I personally don't mind the supplement treadmill, if I need it (OK, if it looks interesting) I'll pick it up. The only problem is when you don't care about a supplement, but one of your players does (or one of your players is a completist) and they just HAVE to use it. That's when it causes problems...

SW setting supplements are also designed with the assumption that you'll play through them in about a six-session arc and then move on to the next book. It's not expected that you'll buy a setting and then play it (and not buy anything else) for four years or whatever.

Six sessions??? You must have it confused with another system. At the recommended 2-3 XP per session (plus Bennie conversion), six sessions will hardly let you make it to Seasoned, much less Veteran, Heroic, or Legendary...

Our 50 Fathoms campaign lasted for about 3 years (albeit interspersed with a D&D game for about a year, but still a good 2+ years of weekly gaming). The Wonderland No More setting we are playing now has been going on for over half a year and we are nowhere near the endgame (although it is in sight, so it won't go 2+ years like 50 Fathoms did).

 

[buzz]

Six sessions??? You must have it confused with another system.

I used to own Necessary Evil, and IIRC, it was setup to be a finite campaign that played out in a reasonable number of sessions. I'd thought that Rippers and Evernight were similar. Built-in endpoints + F,F,F play = quick movement through supplements.

If this is not the case, my apologies.