The truth about THAC0

[francisca]

You haven't really paid attention to the rules, have you? If having numbers based on formulas would bother you, I'd suggest you stay blissfully ignorant of the details. For your own good.

Quasqueton

Yeah. That's it. Totally. Completely ignored the rules.

Where is that icon?

 

[Quasqueton]

there were generally fewer modifiers in 2e than there are in 3e.

What new modifiers does D&D3 have that AD&D2 didn't? The only one I can think of is size modifier. But AD&D2 had a handful of weapon vs. armor modifiers. [I know AD&D1 had these (bunches), but I think AD&D2 had them also.]

Quasqueton

 

[Quasqueton]

It seems to me there is far more arbitrary stuff in 3e than people realize/admit/think about.

Well, what are some examples of these arbitrary numbers? The save DC formula has been explained to you.

Quasqueton

 

[Darkness]

This thread's becoming too rude. Please take a deep breath and relax, everyone. Thanks.

(By the way, the rolleyes icon was banned.)

 

[Silverleaf]

Here's an alternative method, which works great in Basic D&D:

When you roll a monster's attack, add the monster's HD and his opponent's AC to the d20 result. If the total is 20 or more, the monster hit. The Monster Attacks table (page B27, Moldvay Basic) has a simple repeating pattern to it, and using the above formula replicates the chart numbers, up to 9 HD anyway (after that, the chart's progression slows down to +1 for every 2 HD, but that's easy enough to remember since 9th level is name level). Btw, there are very few monsters > 9 HD in Basic D&D.

So for monsters up to 9 HD, you don't even need to have a BAB or THAC0 written down in the stat block. Pretty cool, huh? The monster's HD is his combat rating.

For characters, it's a little different since the classes don't have identical combat ability. So you have to give each class its own progression, kinda like 3e did with BAB. Here's the numbers:

Base THMod Values by Class and Level
[copied & pasted from OD&DITIES #9]

Magic-User   Cleric/Thief   Fighter   Base THMod
 1 - 5        1 - 4          1 - 3       +1
 6 - 10       5 - 8          4 - 6       +3
11 - 15       9 - 12         7 - 9       +5
16 - 20      13 - 16        10 - 12      +7
21 - 25      17 - 20        13 - 15      +9
26 - 30      21 - 24        16 - 18     +11
31 - 35      25 - 28        19 - 21     +13
36           29 - 32        22 - 24     +15
             33 - 35        25 - 27     +17
             36             28 - 30     +18
                            31 - 33     +19
                            34 - 36     +20

As you can see, here too there is a simple repeating pattern for each class, so you don't even need to refer to this table. And the math is the same: d20 + THMod bonus + opponent's AC. If the result is 20 or more then you it.

Negative ACs themselves aren't really problematic since it's very difficult to get a negative AC in Basic D&D, and even then it's usually a small number like -1 or -2. That kind of substraction is not something most people will struggle with, even those who failed 5th grade math. Incidentally, there are only two monsters with negative AC in the Moldvay Basic book: Red Dragon (AC -1) and Gold Dragon (AC -2).

The only confusing part (for those who are new to the game) is that a +1 magic shield or armor actually subtracts to the AC, and vice-versa. Thankfully though, this is a one-time calculation, not something you do every attack.

I hope this helps somebody...

 

[Orius]

in ye olde dayes. it just required the player to roll the d20. add or subtract their modifiers and tell the score. it still does.

the referee or DM will tell you if you hit or not.

What do you mean "ye olde dayes"? I never tell my players the AC either, and the earliest version I've gamed was the black box (or 2e depending on how nitpicky someone wants to be). Some things the PCs are not meant to know (helps cover up my DMing mistakes too ).

 

[Algolei]

I don't know what "intuitive" means, but I've always found it easier to subtract than to add.

One of the things I dislike most about d20 is the fact that higher numbers are always better. I've got players (well, one player anyway) using cheat dice now that never would have bothered making/buying them in earlier editions, because they didn't know when a low number would be good or a high number. :\

 

[Quasqueton]

One of the things I dislike most about d20 is the fact that higher numbers are always better. I've got players (well, one player anyway) using cheat dice now that never would have bothered making/buying them in earlier editions, because they didn't know when a low number would be good or a high number.

You dislike a game system [any system] because you have a Player that cheats? That is such a weird complaint.

Quasqueton

 

[diaglo]

I don't know what "intuitive" means, but I've always found it easier to subtract than to add.

One of the things I dislike most about d20 is the fact that higher numbers are always better. I've got players (well, one player anyway) using cheat dice now that never would have bothered making/buying them in earlier editions, because they didn't know when a low number would be good or a high number. :\

chessex sells cheater's dice.

 

[Wolf72]

is this a troll? ... (not to be mean but this topic is old ... auld even)

the only difficulty with Thac0 was that it was awkward and it seemed like you were counting backwards ... or your target numbers were opposites (or something like that).

saves were a different story though