D&D 4E The Ultimate PHBI4e Warforged Poll

[Danzauker]

I think they fit in very well as a PC race in Eberron, but wouldn't fit in most standard fantasy worlds.

(quick scan of my memory and I can't think of *any* fantasy series with construct heroes. Sci-fi aplenty, but no fantasy ones (Eberron excepted, obviously)).


Can anyone else think of many?

Well, Full Metal Alchemist.

That said, I guess the border between sci-fi and fantasy is in good measure dependant on the eye of the beholder.

Star Wars might be technically sci-fi, but in my eye (and many others') it's always been more akin to a fantasy saga...

 

[Nifft]

(quick scan of my memory and I can't think of *any* fantasy series with construct heroes. Sci-fi aplenty, but no fantasy ones (Eberron excepted, obviously)).

Can anyone else think of many?

Construct heroes is a tough one, because the "tomato in the mirror" trope is quite modern.

Heroic constructs appear in Greek myth.

Stephen R. Donaldson's longest series had many sterile "created" races, one of which was basically animated mud. It could be argued that Vain was a construct hero.

Pinocchio was a construct for much of his story.

Haven't read "Patchwork Girl", but it's in the same universe as Wizard of Oz.

In terms of modern updates, I see some anime which may qualify: "Rozen Maiden".

(Try searching for "doll" instead of "construct", the results are much more fantasy-oriented. )

Cheers, -- N

 

[BryonD]

(Try searching for "doll" instead of "construct", the results are much more fantasy-oriented. )

And if you use "elf" or "dwarf" you'll hit paydirt.

Seriously, for me it isn't the idea of construct heroes that is bad. It is that warforged don't capture the feel of any of the above.

It is hard to be Pinocchio if there is another Pinocchio around every corner. (assuming Pinocchio is what you want in a D&D hero)

I'm reminded of a web comic that included a hero party with 3 surface dwelling drow. Each of which was a lonely outcast, forever misunderstood because no one could relate to their condition.

Which is a common theme in Eberron. Instead of Eberron being cool because it is full of facemen and shapeshifters, shapeshifters and facemen (and searching souless machine men) in Eberron are made boring because they have gone from special to dime-a-dozen.

 

[Nifft]

It is hard to be Pinocchio if there is another Pinocchio around every corner.

The rules for building ONE balanced hero can be used to build MANY. You may choose to build one or many in your setting. Heroes are supposed to be exceptional; your setting should determine precisely how exceptional.

Eberron is doing things one way. You're not required to play in Eberron.

Finally, racial choice is not a guarantee of or a protection against crappy carbon-copy PCs. Plenty of humans heroes are ill-tempered treasure hunters whose parents were killed by orcs.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Removed useless responses to useless stuff.

 

[BryonD]

The rules for building ONE balanced hero can be used to build MANY. You may choose to build one or many in your setting. Heroes are supposed to be exceptional; your setting should determine precisely how exceptional.

Eberron is doing things one way. You're not required to play in Eberron.

Finally, racial choice is not a guarantee of or a protection against crappy carbon-copy PCs. Plenty of humans heroes are ill-tempered treasure hunters whose parents were killed by orcs.

Cheers, -- N

All true.

I 100% accept that the complaints in my last post were constrained to the Eberron setting and not the specific warforged race.

I still think that putting them in the PH1 would result in an Eberron equivalent default and therefore would be a bad thing. This would in particular greatly damage the value of DDI modules and such.

But if you home brew and don't care about DDI then this all becomes meaningless.
I, however, hope WotC is thinking of a wider audience than DDI uninterested homebrewers.

Lastly, race selection may not protect you from crappy carbon-copies, but dime-a-dozen design does a good job of assuring crappy carbon-copies.

 

[Mallus]

Instead of Eberron being cool because it is full of facemen and shapeshifters, shapeshifters and facemen (and searching souless machine men) in Eberron are made boring because they have gone from special to dime-a-dozen.

The same argument can be applied to elves in D&D. Instead of Tolkien's grand, almost angelic race they're reduced to a gamer's (frequently homophobic) running joke.

So let's remove elves as a PHB PC race. That'll make them special again.

 

[BryonD]

The same argument can be applied to elves in D&D. Instead of Tolkien's grand, almost angelic race they're reduced to a gamer's (frequently homophobic) running joke.

So let's remove elves as a PHB PC race. That'll make them special again.

Wrong. "Elf" is not a specific character concept.
You have not touched on the point I made.

 

[Nifft]

Lastly, race selection may not protect you from crappy carbon-copies, but dime-a-dozen design does a good job of assuring crappy carbon-copies.

I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Mallus]

Wrong. "Elf" is not a specific character concept.

Most archetypal fantasy races have a central narrative/core story. It's part of what makes them archetypal fantasy races...

For Warforged it's the Pinnochio story; wooden boy wants to be real, the soulless machine wants a soul. In one way or another this informs specific characters. Elves aren't any different, particularly the Tolkienesque variety; their story is of a race that's Age has passed, with individual members choosing what, if any, moral action to take in a world that is explicitly no longer theirs, that has been ceded to their figurative descendants.

If being a robot race leads to a certain set of stock characters, so does being an elf. I didn't miss your point, I just made it a little bigger...

 

[Deset Gled]

I don't care about how WF fit into the "standard" fantasy genre, or any genre for that matter. I care about mechanics. And, IMO, WF are simply too complicated to belong in the core rules.

WF do not follow standard rules for how they interact with spells (Hold Person? Charm? No go!). The do not heal in standard ways. They do not interact with equipment the same way (Feats to improve armor? Huh?). They don't even mate the same way (and we don't know where they come from). They do not belong in the core rules simply because they are the expection to all the other rules, and will just make things too complicated. They are, however, perfect for a supplement.