The Uncommon BBEG - Not so bad, not so evil

[Umbra]

So there I was reading various threads, picking up ideas here and there and then on the How far do you go in planning solutions to problems? thread these two sentences...

What I mean is you have your BBEG with his/her/it's Master Goal, as oppossed to Master Plan.

Really, a great campaign is about great NPCs who cause trouble.

...triggered a little cascade of thought.

NPC's that block or distract the party from achieving their goals simply because they are too self absorbed, or are greedy, or are following there own agenda can be great fun. They help bring the world to life showing that the PC way is not the only way. (My little old lady who was just trying to walk to the next town to visit her sister generated 2 hours of roleplay as the party felt obliged help her).

But I suddenly thought, what if the BBEG isn't bad or evil. What if he/she/it is simply trying achieve certain goals (see the thread linked above) that come across as evil. Not an original thought by any means but it got me wondering if other DM's have used a BNG (big neutral guy) or a BGG (big good guy) in their campaign as the opposition for the PC's.

Here are some ideas off the top of my head:

The PC's would find themselves in more moral/ethical quandries than usual (would your players cope?)

Would the anti-climax of the campaign be the PC's realising that it's all a big misunderstanding?

The BNG has unwitting put a potential BBEG in charge of some project or other who is using questionable strategies and tactics. And the potential BBEG is planning to knock off the BNG and take his/her/its place so the party ends up helping the BNG.

The BGG actually has the same long term goal as the PC's or the PC's factions/employers.


So. Have you used a BNG or BGG as the problem your players need to overcome? Did it work out? How did your players react to it?

 

[barsoomcore]

Barsoom doesn't have any "good" or "evil" distinctions between people, so kind of everyone's a "neutral"

Here's an example: incredibly powerful sorcerer turns a beautiful woman into vampire and forces her to be his slave. She does really well, learns TONS of sorcery from him, and together they turn her into something even more powerful than what she was -- she essentially becomes a goddess. And of course, she's been driven completely insane by this bastard's constant torturing of his pretty slave vampire. So now he has a pet insane vampire goddess. He uses her to get control of a secret organization and find out what it's up to. She tricks him and throws off his control.

So now we have this incredibly powerful sorcerer trying to destroy this insane goddess he's created, we have this secret order trying to overthrow him, and we have an insane vampire goddess trying to destroy the incredibly powerful sorcerer who created her. Oh and the secret order is devoted to destroying gods and goddesses, so they're after the insane goddess, too.

Who's the bad guy here? Well, pretty much everyone, obviously. So when the party gets involved (as the various factions and sub-factions are trying to get them to help), they need to make REAL choices as to who they're going to support. Is their pity for the insane woman enough to make them take her side against the sadistic sorcerer? Do they trust the secret society enough to join with them? Can they swallow their disgust with the sorcerer enough to strike down the insane goddess?

Ah, story-telling.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Is their pity for the insane woman enough to make them take her side against the sadistic sorcerer? Do they trust the secret society enough to join with them? Can they swallow their disgust with the sorcerer enough to strike down the insane goddess?

My players would never consider any of those options I'm afraid. They'd see it as their duty to destroy all three parties and their only question would be who to stop first. :\ Unless it was in our evil campaign! Then they'd team up with whoever they figured was the most powerful. And then kill and loot their ally once the other two where taken care of.

 

[Impeesa]

Or rather than all evil, how about all good? This reminds me of a campaign I'd like to run. It would be a war game, in the sense that most PCs will take Leadership and there will be frequent large-scale combat. It would be open-ended, where the PCs can pursue many different avenues in building their forces and gaining support. Their eventual goal is to accumulate enough support and strength before the all-conquering empire absorbs their country. There would be a high-level ally, a refugee from a conquered country, who tells horrible tales of the merciless emperor. At some point, the two can even meet on the field of battle, all dramatic and stuff. An epic clash of good vs. evil. Or not. Mr. Rebel is CN or CG, maybe a Holy Liberator or something. The emperor is a paladin who has seen that the small warring countries must be forcefully and swiftly united to prevent further bloodshed. He's just misunderstood.

Alternatively, if my stream-of-thought summary is hard to follow, watch Hero. It's fairly close.

--Impeesa--

 

[BSF]

Hey Umbra! Thanks for quoting me.

One thing I will note is that I use a variety of NPCs as well. In the last campaign, I had two encounters I considered throwaway encounters that the players loved.

One was a common ferryman. Brak was his name. He was slow but strong. Wore a big floppy hat. The PCs engaged him in conversation and mentioned they were adventurers. Brak mentioned that he once adventured. The PCs asked if he wanted to join them. In slow speaking horror, Brak turned them down. Taking off his hat, he said there were 'bigguns' out there and he would not adventure anymore. Once his hat was off his head, the PCs could see that part of his skull had been bitten and crushed.

They dropped the subject and noted that they didn't want to encounter any 'bigguns' anytime soon.

The other encounter was with a pot salesman trying to make a living. He had even hired a guard so he could make it through the lands that were plagued with undead. He didn't have enough money to not travel to the next town even though most of the other merchants weren't willing to make the trip.

The PCs were happy to tell him they had just finished clearing most of the bad things from the area. They swapped information on which towns were nearby and they even bought a cauldron from him. (Then the dumped all their gold into it to show off. Bastards!) I don't remember the merchants name, but we spent a lot longer on that encounter than I planned. I know a couple of the players remember the merchants name.

So I have seen the little old lady scenario in play. Fun isn't it?

As for BBNG's or BBGG's, I didn't use them much in the last campaign. But they exist in the current campaign. I haven't resolved any of those yet, so I cannot post any feedback on the idea. I am hoping it works out well though.

 

[Dog Moon]

I had a campaign once where they heard about this evil person hiding in this dungeon area. Inside the dungeon were a large number of cloud giants [I think they were cloud...it's a giant that can be neutral]. They killed a large number of the giants before reaching the BBEG's room and they stopped when they saw the person appeared to be a green-skinned angel (Planetar). First they had to decide whether the BBEG was some sort of illusionist or something, but when the Planetar started talking to them and telling them about the evil she was trying to fight, they started to believe her a little more, though they still weren't sure whether to believe her or not. They were expecting a surprise attack at any moment, which didn't come. I made the Planetar CG because she was willing to do anything to stop the Demon threat. It was fun. They eventually sided with her and worked to fight against the Demons.

Edit: Forgot this: The group had an item she wanted, so she sent some assassins [not the class] after them to kill the group and get the item. It was a difficult battle since they were ambushed and weren't used to being attacked at night sleeping in their hotel rooms, but the group barely won.

 

[barsoomcore]

My players would never consider any of those options I'm afraid. They'd see it as their duty to destroy all three parties and their only question would be who to stop first.

It was made abundantly clear, on many occasions, that these parties FAR out-powered the PCs by orders of magnitude. There was ZERO chance of them ever stop any of them on their own.

The goddess, for example, was capable of dealing nearly 100 points of CONSTITUTION damage, without save, to every living thing within half a mile of where-ever she was standing.

As a free action.

These were not balanced encounters. The party was never meant to fight these characters. But when the dust cleared, they and the secret organization were the only ones left standing. And they had some sympathy for anyone who claimed to be out to destroy all divine entities.

 

[barsoomcore]

Pay no attention to the post behind the curtain.

 

[green slime]

I agree with barsoomcore, that the choices should not be so clear cut good vs evil. Players should be free to choose their own paths.

 

[Umbra]

Hey Umbra! Thanks for quoting me.

One thing I will note is that I use a variety of NPCs as well. In the last campaign, I had two encounters I considered throwaway encounters that the players loved.

So now I have to quote you again.

I love the ferryman and will definitely use it. Your throwaway encounters comment has spurred me to start another thread here. Perhaps you can become my official muse.

The emperor is a paladin who has seen that the small warring countries must be forcefully and swiftly united to prevent further bloodshed. He's just misunderstood.

The paladin dictator? Perhaps a Champion from Monte's Arcana Unearthed with a cause of Law and Order or Peace.

Who's the bad guy here?

I'd say the DM. Did the party have a lot of trouble deciding on the best course of action? Were they 'good' or simply seeking to survive the whole situation? I suspect with my own players that they may become paralysed with indecision unless come clear roleplay motivations for the characters were in place (which my group tends to let slide).