The Vampie Class preview

WalterKovacs

First Post
Also HoS was announced as a softcover before and I'm not truly certain WotC had planned to use the Essential guidelines as direction for the whole 4e line before Essentials' success. But this is just a speculation.

It's sort of a chicken and egg thing.

Ultimately, Essentials was two things ... a continuation and a jumping on point. Much like when a comic book has a new number 1, or a special 'zero issue', or some other gimmick where they either retell the origin, wipe the slate clean or something like that.

They make that issue easily accessible. If people need to know about stff that happened before, they'll spell it out for them, otherwise they will just leave it out and bring it up when necessary. It doesn't contradict what came before, but it doesn't expect new players to know about it unless they go out of their way to tell them. It's meant to both be a way to avoid scaring off new readers but also start a new direction. Going forward from that point, they will probably expect readers 5 to 10 issues down to the line to have at least picked up from the newest jump on point, and not need to have each issue be self contained. Similarly, over time, they can bring in older elements, giving enough info for a newish reader to get by, but older readers would get more out of it, like recognizing the recurring villain, etc.

So, Essentials was just like every other book in that it was pushing the game forward, but it was also meant to be a newer introductory book. PHB1 was the intro book, but with new rules added in PHB2 and 3, stuff errata'd from most of the copies of PHB1, etc ... The beginner's package was beginning to get a bit more complicated, not to mention that while elements of those books combine to make what a beginner needs, there is also advanced stuff in all those books as well. So instead of needing 3 books as a core which any new stuff is built on (and even those core books, some element of which aren't "as" core), they made a new core with the up to date "simple" rules all in one place (and done twice, so you have it regardless of race/class preference).

The main argument I have against those that seem to have expected some other direction was ... why? Why would WOTC create an entry way to D&D, and not support it. It would be like giving them a Rogue out of the Red Box at level 1, and when they bring it to encounters being told that real Rogues (or Theives) are completely different [teehee, bad example]. If anything, the expectation would be for tons of support for Essentials, (both as the newest and thus having the least support, in the same way seekers and runepriests have the least support; and because as the new entry point, there is an expectation of at least a portion of the playerbase playing Essential characters).

Ultimately, Heroes of Shadows is doing two things:

Supporting existing characters. The powers and feats (and paragon paths/epic destinies), in the book are such that existing characters should be able to take them. Any wizard, warlock, paladin, assassin, cleric can take the utilities (and in some cases encounter and daily powers). The paragon paths seem to be open enough that most characters on their way to paragon tier would be able to take at least one with maybe a feat or retraining of a skill to be able to get it. Also, the feats are likely similar, as the Essential "style" for feats makes them generally accessible by everyone.

The second is to create new characters. That is where the new classes, and new subclasses come into play. You'd basically need to be a whole new character to become a vampire, or to be a necromancer wizard, [or if they gave a new implement mastery or old school warlock pact for that matter]. So, while these elements all seem essential minded (the races are in a post PHB3 mold, and the classes are either builds for Essential stuff, or are in an essential mold themselves), they are options picked at character creation, not something that can be introduced to a character as it levels. Which means, the character someone started playing day 1, say an eladrin wand wizard that is approaching epic tier, is in the same position as someone who just started playing an elven pyromancer. If either one wanted to be a shade necromancer, they'd each have to reroll a new character anyway. So, in the case of these kinds of elements, that they don't follow old design philosophy doesn't create that much of a problem, outside of those that just don't like Essential style of classes. But it's not being done at the expense of older players. A new warlock pact, or a new build for the runepriest or seeker, etc ... would still have been something for new characters only (although, admitedly, a new runepriest build would have meant new runepriest powers, which is ultimately what the class needs).

So, when someone complains that there is no support for say, the implement mastery (which was brought up in this thread), that seems like something that would be unlikely. A new implement mastery would have meant a class feature equivalent to the necromancer as something not usable by existing characters, mage or otherwise. As for powers with the "if you are using this class feature" conditional bonuses, those powers would likely only be really playable by people on that build, thus making any attached to a new build less useful to existing characters, or if they are attached to old builds, still pigeonholed to few existing characters.

On the other hand, the Essential path has a few ways of dealing with build options. On the one hand is the warpriest path. These get fixed encounter powers (that original, wisdom based, cleric's can pick and choose from), and fixed bonuses in general. The powers aren't made usable as a result of a rider that only matters in the case it sinks up with the build. In the case of wizards, their powers aren't chosen for them, but their school benefits point them towards certain types of powers (just as the orb of imposition pointed to save effects, the summoning tome pointed to summons and conjurations, the orb of deception pointed to illusions), but the powers themselves work the same for all wizards. Sure, a pyromancer gets passed fire resistance, but other wizards will still happily pick up a fire power, just not ONLY fire powers. Finally, there is the slayer approach. Like the original fighter, their weapon choice modifies their powers. However, instead of having many powers, some weapon neutral, and then different powers tied to various weapon groups, there is one power being modified in different ways by weapon selection. This cuts down on unneccesary bloat. "Here are 12 powers, 8 of which your character probably won't take because they are subpar unless you have the right weapon." Instead of creating a bunch of powers, which only a few being useful for any particular person, they can just introduce new weapon builds for knights and slayers that modify their power strike (like the staff fighter article).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Walking Dad

First Post
...

The main argument I have against those that seem to have expected some other direction was ... why? Why would WOTC create an entry way to D&D, and not support it. It would be like giving them a Rogue out of the Red Box at level 1, and when they bring it to encounters being told that real Rogues (or Theives) are completely different [teehee, bad example]. ...
That one made me love :lol:
The Red Box has the only transmutation powers to date and the only MM write up where the spell hits two targets.

And some other power names got changed.

---

And now let's stop the discussion about 'core' and 'essentials' and just speak about what we got. Nothing we say here will change anything anyway :)
 

MrMyth

First Post
Who is 'you' in your different paragraphs?

In the second, you clearly refer to me, but I think the others are impersonal, right?

Yeah, that's correct, apologies for any confusion!

And yes, every RPG book only matters for me as I want. It isn't even required to play any RPG or using any book.

But I stand to my words that the Essentials line had a greater impact on the 4e game line than many people thought or wished after reading and hearing the announcements.

'Essentials' is nothing separate, but the 'new' direction of D&D, just as the selectable ability mods in PH3 were a new direction in class design.

Yeah, but I'm just not sure how reasonable it was to believe it was so seperate that it would be completely disconnected from future products. I think the example of the Swordmage is a good one - the Forgotten Realms books are part of a completely seperate setting from the core one. There is absolutely no expectation that regular players need them if they aren't playing FR, unless they want specific options provided in the book (like feats, Swordmage, etc.)

And yet, the Swordmage receives support in future books. And yet, it introduces backgrounds which show up elsewhere.

WotC tried very hard to make it clear that Essentials was part of 4E, not something seperate. It was a contained product line, but so are the 2-3 setting books for FR, Eberron, Dark Sun - that doesn't mean they will be unsupported in the game going forward.

I think it is the same thing here, and while some folks may have misunderstood and thought that Essentials was completely disconnected from 4E, I don't think the blame for that can be laid on WotC. And I can only sympathize so much with those who thought that and were disappointed - it's fine to say, "I want future books to provide more support for the content I like" - but saying, "I want future books to not provide support for the content others like" is, well, not a great position to have. At least in my opinion.

Now, I'm perfectly fine if people are wanting to see more content from WotC in general!
 

Runestar

First Post
I don't play 4e, but I think it is a very commendable effort. Hopefully, this paves the way for more exotic monster PC classes. Heck, we may even be seeing options for angels down the road! :D

As someone who has always been enamoured with the idea of playing monster PCs but always frustrated with the very crippling rules governing them in 3e, this vampire class appears to offer a simple and elegant solution. Forget about clunky templates or feats, simply make it its own class with vampire-themed attack powers.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
I don't play 4e, but I think it is a very commendable effort. Hopefully, this paves the way for more exotic monster PC classes. Heck, we may even be seeing options for angels down the road! :D

As someone who has always been enamoured with the idea of playing monster PCs but always frustrated with the very crippling rules governing them in 3e, this vampire class appears to offer a simple and elegant solution. Forget about clunky templates or feats, simply make it its own class with vampire-themed attack powers.

It isn't entirely a new idea, I do remember a few cases where they allowed someone to take monster levels, it was a bit clunky, but basically treated the monsters with high level modifiers (like say, the doppelganger) like a class so you could level up as you go.

The vampire works especially well considering that it does function like a template (since vampires would be derived from a 'base' race anyway) and vampire lore generally does have vampires becomming more powerful as they age, so the class advancement fits better than most racial advancements (which are mostly just optional benefits like feats and paragon paths).
 

fanboy2000

Adventurer
It isn't entirely a new idea, I do remember a few cases where they allowed someone to take monster levels, it was a bit clunky, but basically treated the monsters with high level modifiers (like say, the doppelganger) like a class so you could level up as you go.
3e's Savage Species had a monster classes. What made it clunky was that monster hit dice weren't equivalent in power to a PC class level. (Though there were many, many similarities between the two mechanics.)

Also 3.5's UA had racial levels that only went up like two or three levels. Given 3.5's mix-and-match approach to class leveling, I think that worked a bit better. Though I'm not sure if the level's were worth taking.
 

No, the mix and match style did only work for non spellcasting classes. Especially the fighter could take them really well, as he didn´t have a lot to lose.

A simple houserule, that added caster level like trailblazer does, however could do the trick. I guess a little bit improved (less feat intensive) multiclass and paragon multiclassing will make vampires quite useful.
Maybe a dragon article could give us some more vampire paragon paths that have prerequisite vampire+powersource/class.
 

Votan

Explorer
No, the mix and match style did only work for non spellcasting classes. Especially the fighter could take them really well, as he didn´t have a lot to lose.

A simple houserule, that added caster level like trailblazer does, however could do the trick. I guess a little bit improved (less feat intensive) multiclass and paragon multiclassing will make vampires quite useful.
Maybe a dragon article could give us some more vampire paragon paths that have prerequisite vampire+powersource/class.

I think that 3.5E's multi-classing system worked out poorly (in the long run) and the Trailblazer system isn't a great patch. But the mix and match system was still better than the LA system.

Certainly I think the idea of doing vampires as a 30 level class is really cool and seems to balance people wanting exotic characters with game balance.
 

gyor

Legend
If you think about it, from the point of view of a player without any books, who wants to pick up Heroes of Shadow, the book is far more useful than an X Power book.

If you don't own any books, you've got the following classes: Blackguard, Executioner, Vampire, Binder
+ PHB: new Cleric, Warlock and Wizard powers. STR Paladins can probably grab some Blackguard powers.
+ Heroes of the Fallen Lands: New options for Warpriest and Mage
+ Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms: New options for the Hexblade. And your Cavalier might be able to grab some of the Blackguard's powers.

Your mentioning of hexblade fired a strange thought in my head. Master of Magic class feature for the hexblade has a arcane, shadow, and divine mode, where the idea is that you exploit that type of energy. When hofk come out it must have seemed out of character that the arcane hexblade had a 22 feature/power that used the shadow power source. Then we find out heroes of shadow is coming out with a shadow powered hexblade gloom pact. If master of magic foreshadowed the Gloomblade, then it follows that the other power source manipulated, divine, could foreshadow another blade pact.


THE EXARCH PACT!

Imagine it, astral diamond blade, summon and angel as your ally and a shadow of the Exarch itself as your greater ally. Instead of being survivalable because of thp durable like Infernals or mobile and tricky like fey, exarch hexblade gets genuine self healing.
 

Remove ads

Top