D&D 5E (2024) The Versatile STR Fighter: Melee with a Real Ranged Option

[Cap'n Kobold]

Again just for info:

5e is based around 20-25 combat rounds. Since you recover half your ammo, you only ever need 2 quivers of arrows for 2gp per adventurer day until level 11.

As I said: Its not generally been an issue for me: But I can definitely see it being a problem in an exploration game with significant numbers of encounters between opportunities to buy more arrows.
This would definitely give the advantage to characters with ranged attacks that do not require ammunition. Like spells.

 

[ECMO3]

Bolded for emphasis.

Cha Truestriking Elf Rogue is purely a optimizer build. It is not the overall norm, not the class fantasy, and very limiting on roleplay.

Ok so we are drifting from the original argument here.

The claim was Cantrips would not benefit Rogues because they do not have high stats.

High Charisma is a general Rogue build, not an optimizer build. It is extremely commonplace among both optimizers and non-optimizers.

The claim is FALSE because most Rogues have high mental stats whether they choose to use Truestrike or not. Whether they choose to use Cantrips or not most Rogues would benefit from using them.

 

[ECMO3]

I definitely view Rogues as martials. I think that True strike is of use on some rogues.
It has opportunity cost to obtain, since it requires specific races or origin feats.
It locks you out of dual-wielding as a way to get more chances to apply Sneak Attack: True strike rogues generally rely on having advantage, so they have to turn themselves into a turret with Steady Aim, or have a lot of cover available to duck behind.

With Truestrike you cause Vex after every hit (ranged or melee) and otherwise rely on the same requirements for opportunity attacks as everyone else. So you are not a steady aim turret. You are a basic Rogue using a Rapier and a Shortbow and doing extra damage.

Using Truestrike makes them less of a 1-trick pony, and it does not lock you out of anything. You can still take the attack action if you have the Truestrike Cantrip, so you can still use two weapon fighting when you want to, although typically you would not have nick. Using Truestrike is generally going to be a substantially better option most of the time though after level 5.

A Rogue relying on fighting with 2 weapons in melee regularly is going to need Vex and Nick on melee weapons, meaning no mastery available for a ranged weapon. So I would say that is more confining than a Truestrike build, not less. Further that fighting style is somewhat situational due to limited movement. As with Truestrike, that style has build costs to use it reliably and effectively round over round. You are going to need to take a high movement race and probably take the speedy feat or Arcane Trickster to get extra movement through spells. If you don't do that you won't have the movement to go in attack, nick, disengage and get out repeatedly.

I've not been in many situations where that became relevant, but you evidently consider it a factor. Do you think that having to use a limited stock of ammunition for your ranged attack is quite a disadvantage compared to having a ranged attack where ammunition isn't a factor then?

Playing Tomb of Annihilation, I played a Rogue who was always out of arrows.

 

[Minigiant]

Ok so we are drifting from the original argument here.

The claim was Cantrips would not benefit Rogues because they do not have high stats.

High Charisma is a general Rogue build, not an optimizer build. It is extremely commonplace among both optimizers and non-optimizers.

The claim is FALSE because most Rogues have high mental stats whether they choose to use Truestrike or not. Whether they choose to use Cantrips or not most Rogues would benefit from using them.

My claim was the the people who typically play Rogues tend to focus on Dexterity and desire a fantasy that has thrown Daggers, shortbows, and light crossbow as their main ranged attack. Or the non-existent in 5e shrunken.

Taking a buff cantrip to do it is not one of the top 10 Rogue class fantasies. And buffing a Mental stat over Dextery (the primary ranged abilty score) is really not worth it unless you only care about optimized damage.

 

[ECMO3]

And buffing a Mental stat over Dextery (the primary ranged abilty score) is really not worth it unless you only care about optimized damage.

So this is what I disagree with. High mental stat is a top 10 Rogue fantasy, well supported by the mechanics and extremely common in play. Not as high as Dexterity, but high enough that using a Cantrip would be of mechanical value whether people use a cantrip or not.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Real cool thing with versatile STR fighter is the low feat demand vs high feat availability. Basically GWM... then the world's your oyster. I think I took mage slayer and the Purple Dragon Commandant (GWM style means plenty of opportunity to be bloodied )

Champion advantage on initiative made for interesting dynamic with our party paladin (our true tank). I could hang within 10 ft in the aura with the longbow out if he was going way last. Or, shift tactics if the paladin was going early initiative and greataxe into the thick of it.

 

[Minigiant]

So this is what I disagree with. High mental stat is a top 10 Rogue fantasy, well supported by the mechanics and extremely common in play. Not as high as Dexterity, but high enough that using a Cantrip would be of mechanical value whether people use a cantrip or not.

High mental stat is a top 10 Rogue fantasy.

High mental stat and using it to cast a spell to make your dagger glow is not a top 10 Rogue fantasy,

 

[Minigiant]

Real cool thing with versatile STR fighter is the low feat demand vs high feat availability. Basically GWM... then the world's your oyster. I think I took mage slayer and the Purple Dragon Commandant (GWM style means plenty of opportunity to be bloodied )

Ironically, this is also due to the GW Fighting style being so bad that you dont care not using it.