The warforged, restoration, and you

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There is no infinite restoration problem. There's no such possibility of an infinite ability score.

Wrong answer to the wrong question. My apologies for not being clearer.

You've failed to provide sufficient justification to demonstrate that healing is one of the items that falls under the "minimum of 1 damage" clause.

Accordingly, since all fractions round down, you can cast an infinite number of Restoration spells on a warforged and will still be unable to heal him of all ability damage.

EDIT:

And, besides, there's still the fact that a single Restoration spell is capable of curing 4,000+ points of ability damage. We already know what happens to healing above and beyond the amount required to cure all extant damage. Why, then, when I turn my Restoration spell on a creature with 3 points of ability damage does the spell limit itself to 3 of reveal's "positive energy points"?

Why are you considering the amount of damage that needs to be healed for Restoration, but not for Lesser Restoration? You're being inconsistent.

 

[Someone]

Per the errata, warforged heal ability damage naturally like anyone else, so they would not be damaged "forever."

Ability drain, then.

There's no such possibility of an infinite ability score.

I don´t think that´s what he was asking for, but if ability scores can´t be infinite, what´s the highest possible ability score?

 

[Starglim]

Ability drain, then.

True, a warforged can have an ability permanently and incurably (apart from a wish or a more appropriate spell) reduced by 1 point. However, this does not cease to count as ability drain damage, so at any time in the future that the warforged takes more ability drain, a cleric can restore all of the newly drained points back up to 1 off his original score.

 

[xen_xheng]

What a mess; this reminds me of an old story about someone who tried to reduce by half the sentences of all prisoners in a prison. The problem arose with life sentences. Since no solution was found, they just gave less strict treatment to those serving life sentences.

What I mean is, there is no way to satisfy both the Restoration text ("cures all ability damage") and the Warforged unique penalty of getting half efectiveness in cures and restorations with the current interpretation of rules. This means a new rule must be set for the Warforged, which can be anything such as

- Cures half the current damage, min. 1 (a pain in the ass for warforged)
- Cures 2d4 (or a similar amount, greater than lesser restoration)
- Cures up to half his original score
- Cures half the damage, and if cast again before suffering more ability damage cures all.

Anything can go, and it will probably end in a house rule until specifically ruled in an errata for Eberron's Warforged. I'd use the last one I suggested.

 

[Enkhidu]

...In the case of Heal, "half of ends the condition of temporary ability damage" is meaningless. A creature either has ability damage or it doesn't. By strict interpretation, you'd round the half-ending of the condition down to no ending of the condition, but it's a higher-level spell so it should not have less curative effect than Restoration.

Which brings us back to the question, "how does Greater Restoration fit into this"

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wrong answer to the wrong question. My apologies for not being clearer.

I think you mean right answer to the wrong question.

You've failed to provide sufficient justification to demonstrate that healing is one of the items that falls under the "minimum of 1 damage" clause.

I disagree. I think I've provided sufficient justification. I think my point on that was clear, too, so we'll just have to disagree? Therefore, you just won't get the answer you're looking for.

And, besides, there's still the fact that a single Restoration spell is capable of curing 4,000+ points of ability damage. We already know what happens to healing above and beyond the amount required to cure all extant damage. Why, then, when I turn my Restoration spell on a creature with 3 points of ability damage does the spell limit itself to 3 of reveal's "positive energy points"?

Just the way it works. Why does harm limit itself? If your point is that you feel it's silly, I quite agree. That feeling's irrelevant though.

Why are you considering the amount of damage that needs to be healed for Restoration, but not for Lesser Restoration? You're being inconsistent.

I'm not being inconsistent. Just because in one case lesser restoration heals more damage than restoration does not make me inconsistent. Don't attribute me to the rules. In that vein, do you care to look at post 34?

I don´t think that´s what he was asking for, but if ability scores can´t be infinite, what´s the highest possible ability score?

I'd say it would be double digits. I don't think you can find actual example beyond that. But, that's not why he chose to use infinite as an example. He used it as a mathematical 'trick' because half of infinite is still infinite. And, actually having an infinite score is impossible. It's like using divide by zero to 'prove' that 1 equals 2. I was having none of it.

 

[Someone]

I disagree. I think I've provided sufficient justification. I think my point on that was clear, too, so we'll just have to disagree? Therefore, you just won't get the answer you're looking for.

Sorry, I don´t think so. The rules are pretty clear in that respect.

I'm not being inconsistent. Just because in one case lesser restoration heals more damage than restoration does not make me inconsistent. Don't attribute me to the rules.

I´d say your interpretation of the rules make them inconsistent.

I'd say it would be double digits. I don't think you can find actual example beyond that. But, that's not why he chose to use infinite as an example. He used it as a mathematical 'trick' because half of infinite is still infinite. And, actually having an infinite score is impossible. It's like using divide by zero to 'prove' that 1 equals 2. I was having none of it.

We agree it´s impossible to have an infinite ability score, but that doesn´t mean that ability scores are not infinite. Knowing that you just made up the limit in 99, nothing in the rules (or the way the rules are made) limits the possible ability score in any way. In other words: whatever the ability score, it´s possible to have that score +1. And in the same vein, Heal and Restoration can heal any amount of ability damage, no matter what high. By that definition, Heal and restoration can heal an infinite amount of ability damage.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Per the errata, warforged heal ability damage naturally like anyone else, so they would not be damaged "forever."

Taking Peter's assertion as true, doesn't that make the whole discussion moot?
[Edit: ah, I skipped the word 'naturally' cary on.]

In the event the above assertion is not true, or to continue an interesting moot discussion...

"All" is a variable dependant in this case on how much ability damage is taken. If there is 7 ability damage, all ability damage = 7. Half of all is rounded down to 3. I believe that all = 7, not that all = 7 for most characters, but for a worforged all = 14. In no instance is all = infinity, infinity has no place in this discussion.

By the text heal is less effective than restoration when the warforged only has 1 ability damage (AND you are following the healing points don't have a minimum of 1). This is nonsensical and worthy of a house rule, but definatly not the rules as written.

Characters naturally heal 1 ability damage per day. Would this also be rounded down, so that a warforged would never reach full restoration without a lesser restoration spell? Edit: again the eratta states natural healing works normally.

Regardless of any of the above discussions (exept the errata), the warforged had better invest in a wand of lesser restoration for the cleric to use when healing them.

 

[TheGogmagog]

We agree it´s impossible to have an infinite ability score, but that doesn´t mean that ability scores are not infinite. Knowing that you just made up the limit in 99, nothing in the rules (or the way the rules are made) limits the possible ability score in any way. In other words: whatever the ability score, it´s possible to have that score +1. And in the same vein, Heal and Restoration can heal any amount of ability damage, no matter what high. By that definition, Heal and restoration can heal an infinite amount of ability damage.

Your argument is otiose. There might be no maximum to ability scores but that does not mean they are infinite. You might have an ability score of 99, 4000, or any number you what to type/write on your character sheet. Restoration is capable of healing that amount (warforged aside). But you can't have a) an infinite ability score OR b) take an infinite amount of ability damage OR c) heal an infinite amount of ability damage.

It's as pointless as divinding by zero as infinity suggested or multiplying by i, the square root of -1. It's not an argument that can be applied in a proof. You shoud have learned or will learn that in trigonometry.

 

[Someone]

But you can't have a) an infinite ability score OR b) take an infinite amount of ability damage OR c) heal an infinite amount of ability damage

If I implied that, I meant what you said in the previous sentence.

This discussion is going beyond the topic, but if you fel more comfortable, let´s try to get the argument beyond the mathematical definitions. I´m saying that the amount of ability healing restoration can heal is unlimited, or has no upper bound. Or if you like, the set of different ability damage numbers Restoration is able to heal is... hmm... large enough, if you dislike the i word.

Anyway, I think the discussion is pointless at this point. My interpretation of the rules is that Restoration and Heal can restore an amount of damage big enough to heal any warforged, even dividing that amount by 2, and the (potentially really big) excess is lost. Yours is that the spell detects the damage, then applies that exact amount (which is then halved). I find mine more appealing, of course, but short of a Wizards intervention I doubt we have more to say.