D&D 5E The Warlord shouldn't be a class... change my mind!

[Tony Vargas]

I don't care if you disagree with me, I really don't. Just be honest whilst doing so.

Rather than demand honesty, I thank folks for it when it comes up.

For instance, some years ago now, in some discussion of game balance in 5e, one avatar/handle said words to the effect of "but, wizards are supposed to be better."

In response to which I had no argument or rejoinder, so I just said "thank you for your honesty."

And again this a fault/feature of the rules system. Adding a class will not magically fix it.

In the case Hussar mentioned, a coordinated charge, simply adding a maneuver that allowed you to charge, that also allowed each of your allies to charge as a reaction, would do it. Probably a bit much for a BM maneuver, but they're very limited, by necessity, since they're all accessible at 3rd level.

The tactical planning - which the players do, not the characters - takes the rules system into account. If something won't work because of the rules you need to come up with a plan that will work with those rules.

Meta-gaming, sure.

Tactical planning -i.e. playing well - brings it's own benefit.

Nod. So planning, tactical or strategic, through most of D&D's history, has been primarily about managing spell resources. A lot of 'tactical play' in 3e could revolve around pre-buffing and targeted Dispel Magic, for instance.

The warlord brings mechanical benefits for pretend tactical planning.

Exactly. Just as the wizard brings mechanical benefits for pretend spellcasting, or the Champion for pretend sword-swinging, or the Rogue for pretend lock-picking. It's mechanics represent the character's abilities, which the player need not share. It's foundational to a TTRPG, really, modeling the abilities of the character independent of the abilities of the player.

One thing that seems clear over the past 5 years is that no one agrees totally on what a warlord should look like.

There's really only been one version of it, so it can't be that hard to see. The issue is just how to bring it into 5e, a game which is much more resource-heavy, higher-versatility, lower-customizability, and higher-power... but, on the plus side, very strongly DM-mediated.

Of course, it's a problem that has only gotten worse, and will continue to get worse, the longer it takes an official version to appear, as people will get entrenched with whatever 3pp or hypothetical gets their fancy.

I see no way around stepping on the battlemaster on some level, but that would be a way to do it without introducing a brand new set of mechanics (which 5e is loathe to do).

It's the most obvious avenue of development, and it'd be no more 'stepping on' the battlemaster than the wizard is stepping on the EK & AT. 5e design is pretty free with mixing a dash of one class within sub-class of another.
It'd have to go a lot further than the BM, though, as it's maneuvers are essentially 1st-level appropriate in scope & variety.
Also, CS dice are focused on the personal superiority of the BM in combat, consistently adding to his damage, for instance, so Warlord maneuvers might be powered by something else.... HD or inspiration or something...?

...see, now I'm throwing out ideas that I might risk getting invested in, which'll only make any official warlord that much harder to like...

...really, really should've just been in the PH, would've saved a lot of trouble.

 

[Garthanos]

Oh, man, most of it is already in the game in some form.
Gotta be able to give bonus movement, sacrifice attacks for ally attacks, bonuses to saves and attacks, etc
Help as a bonus action would be cool, but Help in place of an attack or as a rider on a successful attack would be even better.
Stuff like that.
I’d like to see stances that provide passive benefit to anyone within an aura, perhaps with triggers for active features along the lines above.

Inititative buffs for the team could be int that aura... a front and center ability that gets overlooked.
Co-timed team actions impairing enemies. I know they arent in 4e for the Warlord but as said the Warlord has more potential than has actually been explored why restrict it?

 

[Garthanos]

You almost had me ... and then you had to use the "P" word.

Would you prefer if Paladin was swapped out for Oath binding magics/boons that are a ritual that anyone can take accept or acquire ... cause A fighter with one or two of those is a fine Paladin and can be whatever flavor is desired from backgrounds etc.

 

[Undrave]

One thing that seems clear over the past 5 years is that no one agrees totally on what a warlord should look like. But it seems that the most common conglomeration is something like:

Cleric chassis with INT instead of WIS, d8 hit die, and armor. martial weapons and extra attack instead of channel divinity
Warlock "power" template: limited "spells" but they are escalating, with a few "incantations" that are specialized. Only instead of spells, it's inspiration slots, and instead of incantations, it's expertise, and instead of cantrips, it's maneuvers.

I see no way around stepping on the battlemaster on some level, but that would be a way to do it without introducing a brand new set of mechanics (which 5e is loathe to do).

The secondary stat should be up to the subclass. With INT, CHA and WIS being potential one, and with builds that favour an Archer build while other use your melee weapon reach. Also, just as the Cleric, some subclass would give you better armour and weapon than the basic class. I think they should have Shield as a basic thing though.

I figure they would also have a Fighting -style like most martial inclined classes, but none of the more DMG focused one (Basically the new one that grants maneuver, Defense, Protection and maybe Interception? Fighting Style could kick in alongside the subclass so your subclass could give you those Cantrip granting ones in case of a magical subclass? And new ones?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Would you prefer if Paladin was swapped out for Oath binding magics/boons that are a ritual that anyone can take accept or acquire ... cause A fighter with one or two of those is a fine Paladin and can be whatever flavor is desired from backgrounds etc.

Wait. What?

I've heard of replacing a class with a sub-class, or with a Background or even with a Feat.
But with a Ritual?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Since I dont work today and my son is at kindergarten, I looked at existing mechanic that already exist which could be re-purposed for a new warlord. My findings: create a class that uses the now-unused psionic disciplines known as Mantles, which were made for the ardent/avatar, the psionic warlord. Take the same class chassis, with less disciplines, no ''talent'', no Focus. Psionic mastery become Tactical Mastery, where you can fuse many disciplines together as a grand masterplan, once per day. Replace Psi point with Command Points.

1: Mantles Gain 2 warlord mantles. Gain another one at 7th, 10th and 15th.
2: Archetypes
3: -
4: ASI
5: Extra attack,
6: Archetypes
7: Mantles 3
8: ASI
9: -
10: Extra ASI (I love my martial with more ASI/Feat), Mantles 4
11: Tactical Mastery
As an action, you gain 9 special command points that you can spend only on disciplines that require an action or a bonus action to use. You can use all 9 points on one discipline, or you can spread them across multiple disciplines. You can't also spend your normal command points on these disciplines; you can spend only the special points gained from this feature. When you finish a long rest, you lose any of these special points that you haven't spent. If more than one of the disciplines you activate with these points require concentration, you can concentrate on all of them. Activating one of them ends any effect you were already concentrating on, and if you begin concentrating on an effect that doesn't use these special points, the disciplines end that you're concentrating on. At 15th level, the pool of command points you gain from this feature increases to 11.
You have one use of this feature, and you regain any expended use of it with a long rest.

12: ASI
13: Tactical Mastery 2
14: Archetypes
15: Tactical Mastery 3, Mantles 5
16: ASI
17: Tactical Mastery 4
18: -
19: ASI
20: Legend Lives On +1 to saves per ally within 30'. If dead, roll a d20. On a 10+, someone else takes your mantle and your persona. You reappear 1d4 day later as if affected by a Reincarnate spell.

Mantles:
Mantle of Awe
Mantle of Insight (refluff Aura sight)
Mantle of Command
Mantle of Courage
Mantle of Fury
Mantle of Fear
Mantle of Vigor (refluff mantle of joy + Restore Vigor from Psionic Restoration)
Mantle of Rage
Mantle of Archery (refluff nomadic arrow)
Mantle of Warsmith (refluff psi weapon)

Archetypes

Strategist Presence
2 Passage of Blades: Allies within 60 have advantage on OoA
2 Focused Tactics: When using discipline that grants an attack, the attack deals + Int mod damage.
6 Stall Tactic: Enemies have disadvantage on initiative check.
14 Unshakable Mind: Advantage on Wis, Int, Cha saves. Mind cannot be read.

Vanguard Presence
2 Bonus Proficiency: Heavy Armor, Martial Weapons
2 Battlefront shift: When rolling initiative, all allies can move 5x Cha mod feet without provoking OoA
6 Shatter Formation: Advantage on attack roll on first round of battle, attack pushes creatures 10 feet.
14 Majestic Presence: For 1 minute, for the duration, whenever any creature tries to attack you for the first time on a turn, the attacker must make a Charisma saving throw against your tactic save DC. On a failed save, it can't attack you on this turn, and it must choose a new target for its attack or the attack is wasted. On a successful save, it can attack you on this turn, but it grant advantage on all attacks until the end of your next turn.Once you assume this majestic presence, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Skirmisher Presence
2 Extra proficiency: Martial weapons, 2 skill in: Survival, Perception, Stealth
2 Ambush Party: Grant 1 ally advantage on stealth check for 1-hour. If you or an hidden ally miss with an attack, it can stay hidden.
6 Superior Mobility: When a command allows an ally to make an attack, the ally can also disengage or dash as a bonus action on their turn. When a command allow an ally to move, it can hide as a reaction after the move.
14 Deadly Ambusher: Enemies surprised are vulnerable to your and your allies attacks.

Voilà

 

[Garthanos]

Wait. What?

I've heard of replacing a class with a sub-class, or with a Background or even with a Feat.
But with a Ritual?

Heh, Its a branch off topic but Boons in 4e put some very appropriate things out in a Pelor boon in particular ... there it comes out of your magic item allotment the same as a Paladin had limits on how many magic items. You could be required to donate items periodically or some other significant in game flavor.

 

[Garthanos]

hmmm duplication vocation

 

[cbwjm]

Subclass of the Pie-thrower. Told you I was leaving design space for sub-classes.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Both are clearly subclasses of the Jester class

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*