D&D 5E The Warrior (or how to balance martial's and casters)

[Krachek]

The idea is clever, 4ed use it right from the start.
Using the same frame for different class and make spells, powers, exploits equals in power level.
The OP present the Warrior, but the same process can be applied to Rogue, paladin, Ranger, monk.
And we can redo the same work using the Warlock frame to add more diversity.
it will produce balanced classes, as 4ed was balanced.
The draw back is the feeling of sameness, but if classes balance is a major concern that could help solve it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

A 5e Warlord might work well with "martial spell" exploit slots, upto slot 9.

Just adding some Bard- and Cleric- spell based martial exploits could probably do that quite well.

 

[James Gasik]

Right - that's where I keep circling around with a lot of these discussions about the imbalance between martial and caster characters. Everyone was looking for magic loot back then - that staff of the magi for a magic user was no slouch - but the Fighters IME wanted it more. Because having a spear and magic helmet that could do something cool was a fun part of the game.

I'm starting to think that levels 10+ just need more magic items and boons for the non-casters, rather than a major re-working of class abilities. I'm going to keep mulling this over...

You and I are on the same page. A Fighter with a Rod of Lordly Might, a Helm of Brilliance, or Plate Mail of Etherealness can get a lot of work done, who needs skills or finger wiggling!

 

[Yaarel]

Just adding some Bard- and Cleric- spell based martial exploits could probably do that quite well.

Spells that represent morale, inspiration, vigilance, and similar probably can work as-is as exploits.

I think a healing exploit should distinguish between vigor before reaching zero points versus medical triage after incurring a lethal injury at zero hit points.

 

[Yaarel]

Once the exploit list at each slot level fill out, it will be interesting how the class compares to Fighter and Wizard at the highest tiers, 13 to 16 and 17 to 20.

Maybe the Foresight spell works as-is as a slot 9 exploit.

 

[James Gasik]

I imagine the worst-case scenario is, the Warrior will overall be about the same as the Fighter, but certainly be better in clutch situations. And better at handling challenges the Fighter is bad at, like dealing with large groups of enemies quickly, since AoE attacks are not their forte.

I think it's odd that the Ranger is the one with Horde Breaker and Whirlwind, yet I have never seen a melee Ranger.

 

[Yaarel]

The highest slots allow the Warrior/Warlord to achieve some of the mythic exploits that warriors of legend are known for.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Thanks for the post! I realize this is totally a quick and dirty WIP, so please accept my feedback not as a knock.

I dig a number of the higher level exploits! Dashing Strike is pretty rad, basically a twisty lightning bolt. I think its pretty balanced against LB with the lower damage, but open to some shenanigans w great weapon master, and it moves you as well.

I'm of the opinion that it's probably too weak via action economy for some of them. Bladesingers get to attack twice and can swap an attack for a cantrip, so can take advantage of blade shield, while the warrior cannot. More of these should be paired to the attack action, or take a bonus action to "cast". Armor of Agathys, for example, is better than Iron Defense. Sure, ID gets an extra few HP at first level, but that's pretty small for the lack of scaling and retaliation damage, and not really worth a turn putting up in a fight (circling back to action economy).

Re flexibility - It doesnt have wizard flexibility, unless they get to repick their play book every day and there's some spells I dont think a martial should be able to duplicate (teleport, summon demons, etc), otherwise I'd just play a full caster. Valor Bards are a 9 level caster with 2 attacks at 6th level, can attack and cast in the same round at 14th, on top of a host of bard goodies.

I personally think the Warlock is a really underused chassis that allows a lot of flexibility and expansion via both spells and invocations. The automatic scaling of the gambits (with fewer slots available at any time) coupled with boons replacing invocations has a ton of potential and allow individual player to set the mythic dial where they want for their character.

 

[dave2008]

Thanks for the post! I realize this is totally a quick and dirty WIP, so please accept my feedback not as a knock.

I dig a number of the higher level exploits! Dashing Strike is pretty rad, basically a twisty lightning bolt. I think its pretty balanced against LB with the lower damage, but open to some shenanigans w great weapon master, and it moves you as well.

I'm of the opinion that it's probably too weak via action economy for some of them. Bladesingers get to attack twice and can swap an attack for a cantrip, so can take advantage of blade shield, while the warrior cannot. More of these should be paired to the attack action, or take a bonus action to "cast". Armor of Agathys, for example, is better than Iron Defense. Sure, ID gets an extra few HP at first level, but that's pretty small for the lack of scaling and retaliation damage, and not really worth a turn putting up in a fight (circling back to action economy).

Re flexibility - It doesnt have wizard flexibility, unless they get to repick their play book every day and there's some spells I dont think a martial should be able to duplicate (teleport, summon demons, etc), otherwise I'd just play a full caster. Valor Bards are a 9 level caster with 2 attacks at 6th level, can attack and cast in the same round at 14th, on top of a host of bard goodies.

I personally think the Warlock is a really underused chassis that allows a lot of flexibility and expansion via both spells and invocations. The automatic scaling of the gambits (with fewer slots available at any time) coupled with boons replacing invocations has a ton of potential and allow individual player to set the mythic dial where they want for their character.

Well there is still a lot to go. I need to get a taste of all level's of exploits drafted and then I will start looking at ways to differentiate this more from the wizard. However, the whole point as to basis on the wizard chasis as that seemed to be what you were using in your example.

 

[TwoSix]

Right - that's where I keep circling around with a lot of these discussions about the imbalance between martial and caster characters. Everyone was looking for magic loot back then - that staff of the magi for a magic user was no slouch - but the Fighters IME wanted it more. Because having a spear and magic helmet that could do something cool was a fun part of the game.

I'm starting to think that levels 10+ just need more magic items and boons for the non-casters, rather than a major re-working of class abilities. I'm going to keep mulling this over...

To add onto that, you could also keep overall spell slot progression the same, but slow down spell learning and availability. Have higher level spells available as treasure.