The Whole I'll HAve to Rebuy My Stuff! Argument...

[Mark]

However, if you switch to 4E and don't play 4E

Can't really call it a switch if you don't play, can you?

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't understand the whole "Wizards is making me rebuy my stuff!" argument...

WOTC isn't going to roll up and take your old stuff...

4e isn't going to come out all at once with a thousand dollars worth of merchandise...

I'm guessing it'll be the same release schedule (maybe slightly faster.)

Were people planning just to stop buying gaming stuff as of August 08? (if so can't they still do so?)

I just don't get that argument...

I think I agree with you, we're the only ones responsible for what we buy. If we buy compulsory, and then not even use what we buy, it's our fault.

I bought something like 15 books of 3.0, plus some more received as a gift. I felt a bit enthusiastic for a while, when buying new books, and could have become more avid. I was reading a lot, amassing books I found cool, but using very little of them... Then 3.5 came out, and I got too the "outdated feeling".
I have learned my lesson. Since 2003 I've made my purchases more careful, focusing on books that are actually useful in our games (which for us means mostly setting material), and buying a grand ONE 3.5 book only (UA, which is not so exclusive for 3.5 anyway). I started learning to say NO to books that I was not sure I would use, and I started looking back at what I had, and try to make it useful.

Everyone was saying that 3.0 was dead, but the truth I found in my case is that you can just play the edition you want... People that would refuse to play with you only because "it's not the right edition" are not that common, and if they cannot be convinced then there's a good chance that they are not the kind of gamers I like to play with.

Anyway, if I had spent even 3000$ in 3rd edition books but actually USED THEM, I would not feel bad at all at the coming of 4e, since anyway the money would have served the game. So maybe the problem really is buying lots of things but not using it at all. Being a D&D "reader" and never become a D&D "player"... so then of course it's understandable that when the edition changes before you actually even had a chance to play, then someone is pretty pissed off...

 

[Psion]

Yeah but you're still not "rebuying" all your stuff...

Of course not. But I wouldn't be getting the advertised use out of it.

But should I decide to move forward, I will, doubtlessly, be buying the same kind of products that I already purchased for 3.xe.

But the I have to rebuy all my stuff argument, just doesn't seem like a logical argument...

Just because you are restating the argument in terms that nobody would possibly mean doesn't mean the original argument isn't logical. That's called "beating a strawman."

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well, you see..it started with AD&D 2e and all those "Complete..." handbooks, offering lots of additional options (e.g. kits) to players and DMs to customize certain aspects of their characters.

Then, when 3E came out, one thing that followed pretty soon after the "Core Three" were the class splatbooks. All 5 of them. So basically, if you had bought the "Complete..." books during 2e, you bought that stuff again in a different guise, and all because the stuff from 2e was nearly incompatible with the new system.

Then 3.5 came out...and guess what? Splatbooks again...first the ones that had already been out for 3.0, only updated and errata-ed. So if you wanted to stay up-to-date and on top of errata...you bought them AGAIN. And of course, after that, the market was saturated with splatbooks for races, more class splatbooks, environment splatbooks...and that doesn't take into account the tons of splatbooks that came out from 3rd party publishers.

So now we get an updated edition, 4e, which, according to the ad blurbs, will be mostly incompatible with your old 3e stuff. And by now, we all know what makes money for WotC/Hasbro...more options for players. So the next thing on any potential list of books to be published is...splatbooks of some sort or another. Which will mean, essentially, that a lot of people, in order to stay on top of the new rules and options...will buy their old stuff all over again, in different guise.

Maybe that's not what you were after, but it's how I interpret a lot of those complaints.

 

[Scribble]

Of course not. But I wouldn't be getting the advertised use out of it.

But should I decide to move forward, I will, doubtlessly, be buying the same kind of products that I already purchased for 3.xe.

So what??? I bought a book for GURPS that was all about robots... I also bought d20 future and its book on robot stuff...

Neither one invalidates the other. The two are still usable for the game they support.

When Wizards stopped supporting 3.0 and moved to 3.5 I was pissed because they stopped supporting the game I was enjoying. Not because I had to rebuy anything.

When I finally decided I liked 3.5 the products I bought were just more gaming stuff, but for a different game.

Just because you are restating the argument in terms that nobody would possibly mean doesn't mean the original argument isn't logical. That's called "beating a strawman."

Mean what you say, say what you mean.

Just as easy to call something a strawman to "win" a debate.

 

[ProtoClone]

Their older stuff that is heavy in crunch is no longer "valid" for the new edition. It won't work without extensive conversion. As someone who continued a Planescape campaign from 2nd Ed. into 3E, there was alot of conversion work to be done. Heck, look at some of the fan sites like Planewalker, Athas.org, and Birthright.net....most of them are *still* working out parts of the conversions, 8 years later. And now they'll have to start all over again.

Nobody will take my books away. But it's easy to become marginalized, if you want to stick with 3E, but all your players want to go to 4E. So, if you end up going to 4E to keep your group together, the DM ends up with a *tonne* of work to do converting stuff, if they want to keep using those older supplements. And if they don't convert them because of the whole thing with "it's not going to be that compatible, it's easier to start over", well, then, that just supports the whole argument that we're going to have to buy stuff all over again.

I don't like to be critical, but I think that minimalizing or making fun of those who are bringing this up is a little unfair. It's a legitimate, real concern.

So, if you end up only finding players who want to play 4E, your options are now limited. And if you move to 4E, you either have to do converting of old material you'd still like to use, or.....buy the newest supplements. And what I'm really concerned about is that 2 years from now, I'll be buying a City of Sharn 4E book, and a Magic of Eberron 4E, and a Waterdeep 4E book, etc. There was tonnes of stuff that could still be mined in 3E, and now it won't be done, and it's entirely possible that they'll be retreading ground that was just covered a few years before in 3E. For a lot of us, that's aggravating.

If they provided online conversion resources for 3E books to show how to use them for 4E, and then hit up with *new* books in 4E, like a 4E Moonshaes book, or 4E Old Empires, or whatever, that wouldn't be so bad. But I somewhat suspect that it's not going to happen.

I never would have thought it possible, but the whole thing makes me seriously consider becoming a 3E grognard, or just giving up the hobby. My group split in February, I haven't played since then, though I've started to try to find a new group. I seem to keep finding university students, however, who have no vehicle, and complain about needing to take the bus to get to the game, and have irregular attendance. To add on "3E only, even though the game is now at 4E" is just adding a further "filter" that has to be applied to the prospective pool of players.

I can kind of see the appeal of MMO's with all this. Upgrade to the new edition and pay for DnD Insider access, or get a Middle Earth online or WoW subscription, and leave the tabletop behind?

Banshee

You said exactly what I wanted to say.

 

[ProtoClone]

When Wizards stopped supporting 3.0 and moved to 3.5 I was pissed because they stopped supporting the game I was enjoying. Not because I had to rebuy anything.

Others are feeling this exact same way as you did about 3.5...they are mad because 3.5 is not going to be supported anymore. This isn't going to be just a little bit of a change leaving older stuff usuable with little to no conversion involved. This means all of the books will be useless without some conversion done to them to keep them in their library, much like 2e to 3e had to go through. They feel they have to rebuy the books because they want to keep playing with their friends who have also rebought books. Maybe these people don't have anyone else to play with in their area and are forced with the decision, "update or don't play"?

You know, I think this same debate came up when they went from 2e to 3e to 3.5e.

 

[Scribble]

Others are feeling this exact same way as you did about 3.5...they are mad because 3.5 is not going to be supported anymore.

That's fine. I don't grief them for that. I'm upset that 3.5 is ending myself. I like it, and I like a lot of the products that had been coming out lately. Doesn't mean I might not like 4e... Just that it sucks to see 3.5 no longer getting support (in the future.)

This isn't going to be just a little bit of a change leaving older stuff usuable with little to no conversion involved. This means all of the books will be useless without some conversion done to them to keep them in their library, much like 2e to 3e had to go through.

My 3.0 stuff worked just fine for like 2 years or so before decided to start playing 3.5. I bet they still work just fine right now...

My xbox still works.. as does my NES...

They feel they have to rebuy the books because they want to keep playing with their friends who have also rebought books. Maybe these people don't have anyone else to pay with and are forced with "update or don't play"?

Shrug. That's not Wizard's fault. That's their own gaming group and their desire to play a game they don't own. Your 3.5 stuff will still function. What's the difference between that and if the group decided they wanted to play Iron Heros or GURPS or Palladium?

 

[ProtoClone]

That's fine. I don't grief them for that. I'm upset that 3.5 is ending myself. I like it, and I like a lot of the products that had been coming out lately. Doesn't mean I might not like 4e... Just that it sucks to see 3.5 no longer getting support (in the future.)



My 3.0 stuff worked just fine for like 2 years or so before decided to start playing 3.5. I bet they still work just fine right now...

My xbox still works.. as does my NES...



Shrug. That's not Wizard's fault. That's their own gaming group and their desire to play a game they don't own. Your 3.5 stuff will still function. What's the difference between that and if the group decided they wanted to play Iron Heros or GURPS or Palladium?

Don't you think that maybe wizards preys on that a little. Wizards know people will rebuy books because the players will want to keep playing with their friends. The bonus of the mechanics being cleaner and combat quicker "should" overshadow the fact people feel like they have to rebuy the books to keep playing, right? For some yes and for some no...and some just don't care.

If they want to play those other systems they can and maybe eventually they will feel like they have to buy their own copies. I know all editions will still function as do the xbox and nes...they just won't be supported. For some, that is enough to move on to the next system.

 

[Scribble]

Don't you think that maybe wizards preys on that a little. Wizards know people will rebuy books because the players will want to keep playing with their friends. The bonus of the mechanics being cleaner and combat quicker "should" overshadow the fact people feel like they have to rebuy the books to keep playing, right? For some yes and for some no...and some just don't care.

Sure... But they come out with new cars every year as well... Doesn't mean my car a 2005 model stops working. (well sometimes it does, but thats not related to the new models!)

You're not rebuying books. You're buying new ones for another game system. Presumably because you like the new system.

If they want to play those other systems they can and maybe eventually they will feel like the have to buy their own copies. Borrowing other people's books can only last so long before it gets to be too much of an inconvience for both parties. I know all editions will still function as do the xbox and nes...they just won't be supported. For some, that is enough to move on to the next system.

Great... So they've started playing a new system, just like playing another game.