D&D 5E The Wonkiness of Tool Proficiency

[77IM]

The terminology matters considerably: An affect that gets you advantage on ability checks does NOT affect attack rolls and saving throws, but it WILL affect skill checks, tool checks, and unmodified ability checks (like a raw Constitution check for a forced march or a raw Strength check for busting down a door).

At first I thought it was silly not to consider attack rolls and saving throws as subsets of ability checks, but it actually makes sense, because attack rolls and saving throws are very important for combat balance so the rules tend to give them bonuses a bit less frequently.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Already taken care of- 250 days & 250 gp same as for learning a language or tool.

Over the years we've tried all sorts of training rules. And while they do add some good flavor and help explain new abilities in the rules, they've rarely showed any real benefit to the game, although I can also see circumstances where they would.

Most of my campaigns have centered around a specific group of characters, with the same players. The story and the characters go wherever they go. So, we could say it takes 5 years to learn something new. The world continues around them, so it's got to be at a reasonable stopping point, but otherwise they just take the time and the campaign picks up whatever amount of time later. So it hasn't had much of an impact.

On the other hand, if you're running a location based campaign with many characters in that location and a given session or adventure featuring different characters, then the time training, etc. works very well. One character decides they want to spend the next year learning something, and when they return to adventure a year later, then they've learned something new, but missed other things.

Ilbranteloth

 

[MerricB]

Well, if you're going to simplify like that, then everything is an ability check. Attack rolls are just STR or DEX ability checks with the DC = AC, and proficiency dependent upon your weapon proficiency. Saving throws are just ability checks too.

I'm not simplifying. I'm emphasizing what the actual terminology is in the game.

The Guidance spell gives a bonus to one "ability check".

Does this mean it applies to attack rolls? To saving throws? To attempts to pick locks with thieves tools? To cross a narrow plank with Acrobatics?

The answers are: No, No, Yes and Yes.

I advise you to go and learn what the actual rules are.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Cheeseball Baggins picks the lock with his thumb! HOODY HOO!

I almost crapped myself when I read this from laughing so hard.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I'm not simplifying. I'm emphasizing what the actual terminology is in the game.

The Guidance spell gives a bonus to one "ability check".

Does this mean it applies to attack rolls? To saving throws? To attempts to pick locks with thieves tools? To cross a narrow plank with Acrobatics?

The answers are: No, No, Yes and Yes.

I advise you to go and learn what the actual rules are.

Good point, although a bit harsh on the delivery...

So the correction that you, and 77IM pointed out, is that terminology does matter when parsing the rules. I was just pointing out that the application of a 'skill check' is different from an ability check and didn't consider that in my response. But that's irrelevant at this point since the book calls them ability checks.

Having DM'd since the '70s I'm quite comfortable with the rules, thank you. That I don't always check my facts, make assumptions, or mistakes when responding to a post is different. My mistake, but I don't think it calls for that sort of retort.

Ilbranteloth

 

[guachi]

By RAW, you can't gain proficiency in new skills, but you can in tools. That's one big difference.

Just for clarification, I assume you mean you can't gain proficiency in new skills via training. You get 3 new skills for being a Lore Bard, 3 skills for picking skilled feat, and one skill for multiclassing to a bard, ranger, or rogue, and 2 (at expertise!) for being a knowledge cleric.

 

[guachi]

Deception is for the stuff that does not require materials. Creating the disguise is using your Disguise Kit proficiency (or lack thereof). Deception is what is done afterward, and how good your disguise is will play a factor. A bad disguise could give disadvantage on the Charisma (Deception) checks.

Disguise - do I look like the guy.
Deception - do I act like the guy.

Do you look like the guy? maybe give a bonus to deception.
Do I have a relevant skill to act like the guy? maybe give a bonus to deception.

Example: you want to look like a Priest of Blahhhh. You don't have the right robes? No problem! You are (for example) a level 1 Cleric with Religion skill. Disguise - none. But maybe your Deception score is at advantage because you can plausibly fake being a Cleric and your Religion skill may give you enough knowledge of the rites of the religion in question to fake someone for a few minutes. "You aren't in the proper vestments! Do you know the secret sign?" "Why yes. Yes I do."

The converse could be true - You look the part from a great disguise but only took the 10 minute crash course in the religion.