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D&D 5E The word ‘Race’

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Is it? That's a fantastic way to convince someone...tell them their argument is irrelevant.

One word: Tanari. How'd that work for removing barriers? Did it remove stigmas or unnecessarily reinforce them.

No idea on that score, but I much prefer Tanar'ri to the generic and colorless "demon." I mean, a T-Rex can be a "demon" too, and so can a mezzoloth and so can a fire elemental. But some demons can be Tanar'ri, and I like that.

It's the kind of name you can imagine creatures using for themselves, unlike "demon."
 

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Tanar'ri or the name for devils never got much traction with the people I game with. "What's a tanar'ri? A demon. Oh why not call it a demon?" is the response.

I really have a hard time understanding how the stats representing biological differences between fantasy races somehow reinforcing racism in real life. Does that just apply to fantasy Tolkien influenced works like D&D or would Star Trek be racist too for having Klingons being stronger on average than humans? Or Vulcans? Heck in Star Trek nearly every race is stronger than humans, some smarter as well. Would a Trek game be racist for including that or is it just a victim of the racist source material?

In older editions was giving 60 pound adult halflings a negative STR mod a racist idea? How far does this idea go?
 

I don't think D&D is trying to be racist. But I do think they're ignoring some of the lingering racist elements in the lore their works are based on.
I continue to be surprised by the fact that there is even a debate around whether the classic fantasy works that D&D draw on contain racist elements and ideas.

I'll pass over Tolkien for the moment - in my experience contemporary American gamers sometimes seem to have trouble picking up on the cultural and historical allusions in his work.

But the racist elements in the classic pulp of REH and HPL - both of whom D&D draws upon heavily - are hardly subtle. Read The Vale of Lost Women or The Call of Cthulhu. Ideas of biological degeneracy, expressed via very familiar motifs of human history and ethnicity, are ubiquitous in these pulp stories.
 

Tanar'ri or the name for devils never got much traction with the people I game with. "What's a tanar'ri? A demon. Oh why not call it a demon?" is the response.

Ditto. Everybody at the time knew it was just a silly effort to deflect and placate the religious wackos.


I really have a hard time understanding how the stats representing biological differences between fantasy races somehow reinforcing racism in real life.

It doesn't, but that doesn't stop people who can find something to be offended by pretty much anywhere.



Does that just apply to fantasy Tolkien influenced works like D&D or would Star Trek be racist too for having Klingons being stronger on average than humans? Or Vulcans? Heck in Star Trek nearly every race is stronger than humans, some smarter as well. Would a Trek game be racist for including that or is it just a victim of the racist source material?

In older editions was giving 60 pound adult halflings a negative STR mod a racist idea? How far does this idea go?

Bingo. The end result is just stupid. Variety is not the same thing as discrimination. Homogeneity is not a desirable end goal for anything, RPG or real life.
 
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Yeah, I love Lovecraft and Howard but there are definitely racist ideas throughout. In Lovecraft non European descended stock are inferior though they sometimes rise above their racial handicaps.
 


If you're not going to respond to what I wrote and just make up these straw men I really don't see a possible discussion here.

We could remove the 6 base stats entirely. Many solid RPGs don't have them and their characters are served just fine with representing their features, their abilities and so forth in other manners.


Again, this is entirely your opinion, which I have already stated you are welcome to keep. But since I don't see us actually having a discussion here I'm not going to respond to your comments further.

I haven't made any strawmen. I'm pointing out the futility of doing what you are suggesting - namely removing racial modifiers. So you transfer the "differences" to features, or some other mechanism, but that begs the question of "How does an ability modifier convey racial differences in a negative way where other differences do not?" The answer is that there is no difference. It is all pointless semantics.


...and I don't need your permission to keep my opinion, thanks.
 

Was bringing up ancestral D&D issues supposed to somehow magically absolve D&D of this specific issue?
It is to illustrate a) there is nothing to "absolve D&D of" and b) if there were, changing the word would not do it. You are contending that it is the word itself that is the problem. Someone who has issues with the concept of identifying groups of people based on hereditary traits is not hung up on the word itself but the concept. Call it People, species, bioform, whatever you still have the same issue and, while I do think people tend to be rather foolish, I don't think they are foolish enough to be fooled by using a euphemism. Look at the above post that was provided as evidence and filled you with such anguish...it wasn't the word "race" that that the person used to reinforce his own racism. It was the concept that some races are on average better at some things than others. No matter how you represent that mechanically (racial bonuses, dark vision, speed, proficiency, immunities, resistances, vulnerabilites, what have you) it will still be the same. And if you don't represent it mechanically, then there is no point. Are you going to still have groups of similar peoples living in their own cities. Are elves and dwarves still going to dislike and distrust eachother but set aside th (edit) those differences when orcs show up? Then you still have the issue of race in your game. If you don't like those things then by all means remove them from your game. Get rid of all humanoids but humans or just say everyone can have whatever outward appearance they want but there is no mechanical or cultural difference.

Therefore the only way to solve this (non)problem is to remove the very concept and I strenuously object to that notion because I _like_ including a variety of races in the game and even having some racial strife. It's a staple of the genre. If you don't, play without them and please leave the rest of us alone. It's like you walked into a bar and are objecting to people smoking. Go to a bar that doesn't allow smoking.


Apples and oranges, really. Though to your question, I'm sure some kids got to play D&D that otherwise wouldn't have because they could say "See, it's not satanic like that movie, it doesn't have demons in it."

And I very very much doubt that. I had a friend around 1985 quit playing for that very reason. He sounded just like you. He agreed that the way we played the game wasn't satanic, but he believed someone could use the game to introduce people to the occult and he couldn't stand to be a part of that. So he dumped all his books in a dumpster (which fortunately my brother retrieved and we kept). While I disagreed with his reasoning, I don't believe he was dumb enough to fall for changing terms...and since the terms devil and demon are back, I gather WotC figured that out.
Your defensiveness is misplaced. No one is turning you into a villain or making you change. A simple word puts some people off the game who would otherwise gladly play it. Do you want more people to play the game? Would it do you any harm to change the word? Then you shouldn't object to the the idea of changing that word - it'd be doing good things, and not hurting anybody.

You are trying to make us change. You want us to stop using the word race to fix a problem that isn't fixed by changing the word. And didn't you say above D&D had to be "absolved" of this issue? If you aren't making us out to be villains you are at the very least treating us like we have committed some sort of sin and I reject that utterly.

Do I want more people to play? Of course and I've introduced scores of people to the game. But not if it means changing the core concepts of the game. If you aren't talking about that then I see no evidence that what you are proposing would do anything other than make an attempt to appease people who are not interested in being appeased.
 
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I don't think you would want to remove racial modifiers. People like the options they give. You know it's another way to customize your character. You can tweak things though. Part of the bit that bugs me is that the radical stereotypes D&D has are backed up by the mechanics. The stereotype is that elves are more agile then normal and the mechanics of the game the +2 to dex back that up. It makes the in world stereotyping right because it's true. Ya.. think about the kind of message that sends. You could try and tweak things so that the stereotypes the setting has don't always meet up with the mechanical reality. That gives out a different vibe. (It's a thing you see in some settings already.)
 


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