The Iron Mark
First Post
Yes it does. What's funny is that the epic spell that garuntees a WtW doesn't require the target to have been a spellcaster.
The Worm That Walks
- Thread starter Arken
- Start date
Arken
Explorer
Yes it does assume a spellcaster (thanks by the way for looking into this green slime 
)
However to me the idea that it has to apply to a high level arcane caster seems purely a flavour issue, For example it could just as concievabley be put on a high level Druid (which I intended) or even Cleric. Further (as noted by The Iron Mark) the spell to create one can be cast on anyone. Also the actual caster level of the creature that the template was applied to wouldn't change the spell like summoning ability (i think) as the spell like abilities are specified as being as if cast by a 20th level caster.
)However to me the idea that it has to apply to a high level arcane caster seems purely a flavour issue, For example it could just as concievabley be put on a high level Druid (which I intended) or even Cleric. Further (as noted by The Iron Mark) the spell to create one can be cast on anyone. Also the actual caster level of the creature that the template was applied to wouldn't change the spell like summoning ability (i think) as the spell like abilities are specified as being as if cast by a 20th level caster.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Arken said:
Um, have you read the ELH? After playing in a couple Epic games and going over the rules in that book, it is clear that the majority of the CRs and adjustments are under-estimated (at least assuming core rules). A friend of mine was DMing a game and he's had to remove a great deal of power from monsters with equivalent CR ratings just to allow the party to survive.
So, a piece of advice, the CR is too low. I don't know what it should be, but I think just the +20 insight bonus to AC alone is worth +3 CR....
green slime
First Post
I think part of the CR problem is that the span of abilities/capabilities you will see in various PCs will vary enormously.
Depending on whether the players are intimately familiar with high level play, whether they use all the min/max cheese that is available (multiple archer PrC's, archmage/red wizards/shadpw adepts, clerics with hospitaler/windwalker/hexer PrC, paladin/divine Might/divine shield/shield bash, and so on), whether the characters actually had to survive to attain those levels , or were created at 23rd level.
Thus pinning done an exact CR gets harder and harder, the more elevated the level.
Sitting here, looking at the book, I can only say, that this is summon vermin ability is another ELH oversight, because it isn't clear at all. I would assume that it means per caster level. Given that this ability is always at caster level 20, why didn't they just say 200HD of vermin?
Depending on whether the players are intimately familiar with high level play, whether they use all the min/max cheese that is available (multiple archer PrC's, archmage/red wizards/shadpw adepts, clerics with hospitaler/windwalker/hexer PrC, paladin/divine Might/divine shield/shield bash, and so on), whether the characters actually had to survive to attain those levels , or were created at 23rd level.
Thus pinning done an exact CR gets harder and harder, the more elevated the level.
Sitting here, looking at the book, I can only say, that this is summon vermin ability is another ELH oversight, because it isn't clear at all. I would assume that it means per caster level. Given that this ability is always at caster level 20, why didn't they just say 200HD of vermin?
Arken
Explorer
LOL, Alright thanks for all the advice everybody, I think the conclusion is that the ability is crazed and over-powerful (possibly because of an oversite or miswriting) but also that that isn't exactly out of the norm for ANYTHING that is in the ELH (thankyou cloudgatherer ). As there doesn't seem an easy way of explaining away the thing to a form in which it can be considered balanced I guess I'll just have to do it the hard way and rehash the thing until it seems right
Nothing in life (and with the CR system) is ever simple
Thanks again for all the help, If anyone has any suggestions of what the ability could be changed to so that it made sense on a 10-15th level character they would be greatly appreciated.
). As there doesn't seem an easy way of explaining away the thing to a form in which it can be considered balanced I guess I'll just have to do it the hard way and rehash the thing until it seems right Nothing in life (and with the CR system) is ever simple
Thanks again for all the help, If anyone has any suggestions of what the ability could be changed to so that it made sense on a 10-15th level character they would be greatly appreciated.
green slime
First Post
Sorry to lurch off in mid thought like that, but the gang came over had to face the consequences of interupting a battle between a Young Adult Green dragon and an advance war party of Drow in the Crater Ridge Mines (RttToEE)...
Another idea (admittedly not completely worked through) would be to limit the summon vermin to some kind of "swarm" as described in Fiend Folio, with a limit of 200HD swsarm per day.
Just an idea I had as they walked through the door, so I had to go and threaten their characters with some poisoned darts, poisonous breath weapon, rust monsters and ettins, the usual fare of adventures...
Another idea (admittedly not completely worked through) would be to limit the summon vermin to some kind of "swarm" as described in Fiend Folio, with a limit of 200HD swsarm per day.
Just an idea I had as they walked through the door, so I had to go and threaten their characters with some poisoned darts, poisonous breath weapon, rust monsters and ettins, the usual fare of adventures...
Arken
Explorer
I certainly considered that but even then 200HD gets out of hand especially if the swarms that aren't even vermin are included. Even if they aren't allowed (abyssal ants being Abberations)then a total of 200HD would allow for 40 summonings of either plague ants of rapture locusts. What i may do is include such swarms in the summoning 'list' (whilst discounting certain overpowered and unflavourful vermin like the ccentury worm) and then change the summoning into a character level dependant variable that was lower than 200Hd though probably useable more than once per day, I might possibly edit down the +20 insight bonus to AC aswell though I'm not sure yet.
Your game certainly sounds fun by the way green slime
Your game certainly sounds fun by the way green slime
