The Worship Points System

[S'mon]

S'mon counters

U_K - Reality Factor - no, the RF determines the ability of a plane, individual or artifact to impose _its_ reality on another reality, Eg a powerful individual with a high RF can usually trash a reality with a low RF - like how the evil Kryptonians trash the institutions of the USA in 'Superman 2'.
By contrast a high-RF plane will cripple the effectiveness of a powerful individual with lower RF; as when Thrin's powers were limited on Earth:2020.

The possibility of giant humanoids etc is determined by the Physical Factor as detailed in 1e Manual of the Planes.

 

[S'mon]

Re: S'mon counters

U_K - Reality Factor - no, the RF determines the ability of a plane, individual or artifact to impose _its_ reality on another reality, Eg a powerful individual with a high RF can usually trash a reality with a low RF - like how the evil Kryptonians trash the institutions of the USA in 'Superman 2'.
By contrast a high-RF plane will cripple the effectiveness of a powerful individual with lower RF; as when Thrin's powers were limited on Earth:2020.

The possibility of giant humanoids etc is determined by the Physical Factor as detailed in 1e Manual of the Planes.

Both Physical Factor and Reality Factor affect the likely 'credibility' of the setting. But our own (real) Earth does not have a huge PF: it's about +5 over the AD&D norm of +0. If it were higher there'd be no bipedal animals, no flying bumblebees, etc, ultimately at PF+10 no matter as all matter would react explosively with all other matter creating an undifferentiated energy vortex. By contrast the 'real world' effectively has an infinite Reality Factor - because it's real.

 

[-Eä-]

On NAC SnAC

Personally I think your system would increase the "reality factor" (-; of the system. I think it is a quite cute system if you want to inorporate such things, but I can assure you that I won't use it - even if I like it - because most of the players I am playing with, would not like to use a new system for this. You have to modify a lot to do it, magic items, for example.

I recommend setting up a poll at some of the other boards to get more opinions on it.

To tamper with the core rules is quite dramatic, at least when the effects are as obvious as this, and unfortunatelly I suspect that there will be less attractive to most of the people to do so.
You may also put a small appendix at the end where AC and dexterity scores of the creatures are included.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: On NAC SnAC

Hi -Eä- mate!

Personally I think your system would increase the "reality factor" (-; of the system.

I do prefer things to make sense. Thats true.

I think it is a quite cute system if you want to incorporate such things, but I can assure you that I won't use it - even if I like it - because most of the players I am playing with, would not like to use a new system for this. You have to modify a lot to do it, magic items, for example.

I have still not yet settled on what (if any) interpretation of Natural/Supernatural Armour I may include.

However, two wrongs don't make a right! Just becuase WotC advocates some bizarrely illogical armour system doesn't mean I should.

I recommend setting up a poll at some of the other boards to get more opinions on it.

Perhaps when I have decided exactly how I want to proceed in this area.

To tamper with the core rules is quite dramatic, at least when the effects are as obvious as this, and unfortunatelly I suspect that there will be less attractive to most of the people to do so.
You may also put a small appendix at the end where AC and dexterity scores of the creatures are included.

The Core Rules are only canon in so far as the DM wants them to be.

Its certainly not my intention to rewrite Core Rule fundamentals except where absolutely necessary:

- Challenge Ratings above 20
- Vorpal Weapon Ability
- Armour Maximum Dexterity
- Fortitude Save for Harm

But the more I disect Natural Armour the more I am convinced it simply doesn't make sense!

There are 3 methods for not taking damage:

#1 AVOIDANCE (eg. Dexterity, Dodge)
#2 DEFLECTION (eg. Shield, Parrying)
#3 ABSORPTION (eg. Armour, 'Natural Armour'/Resilience)

Each method also has possible supernatural/magical options that cease to function within Anti-Magic.

#1b (Cats Grace, Gloves of Dexterity)
#2b (Shield Enhancement, Ring of Protection)
#3b (Armour Enhancement, Damage Reduction)

Yet the Core Rules (for no forseeable reason other than to placate the previous incarnation of D&D) advocate that armour does not absorb damage but deflects attacks.

The results of which mean we arrive at our current predicament!

The solution:

In effect, all Natural Armour should decrease Damage, not increase Armour Class.

However, this first 'law' cannot be applied to Outsiders (the proverbial 'spanner in the works' as it were) since many are not naturally tough, but rather supernaturally tough, or even a combination of the two.

One ludicrous comparative is that of a Succubus and a Bebilith. They would have us believe that the delicately skinned Succubus has natural armour (for its size) superior to full platemail while the chitinous plated Bebilith has (for its size) armour akin to chainmail.

Any comments!?

I will post more on this later.

 

[Anubis]

Hey UK!

I have a correction, a suggestion, and several questions for you.

First, the correction. I noticed that you posted earlier about a Vorpal Longsword +5 costing 100,000 gp and taking 200 days to create. That is incorrect. By the rules, you must take 1 day for every 1,000 gp, so the time needed would be 100 days, not 200 days. You made this mistake on all of your examples.

Second, the suggestion. You seem to be making things far more complex than they need to be. D&D3 is a good simple and simple, and there is no need to make drastic changes for the sake of realism, especially where there are already logical explanations.

As far as natural armor is concerned, the current system is perfect and should be left alone. My reasoning is that "natural" armor does NOT always mean natural as in "tough hide" or "scales" or the like, nor should natural armor be used to reduce damage. Simply put, that is the exact reasoning behind having "natural armor" and "damage reduction". Under your current proposals, damage reduction should be negated in an antimagic field just as supernatural armor is. This is not the purpose of antimagic, however, and your proposals overly complicate matters. Damage reduction, simply put, comes in one of two forms: 1) natural toughness that reduces damage (i.e. barbarian damage reduction and hardness) and 2) mystical (NOT magical, this would be an Extraordinary ability) toughness that requires a special means to defeat. Natural armor, the way I see it, also comes in two forms: 1) truly "natural" armor (i.e. scales, hide, etc.) and 2) a "mystical" (again, NOT magical, this would still be an Extraordinary ability) form of natural armor that is a result of a reality the real world can only imagine, and although some things LOOK tougher, that doesn't always mean they are, and as such, natural armor is thus concidered to be a manifestation of a different reality that we can't possibly comprehend (IOW, natural amor is neither magical nor psionic nor supernatural, but rather a strange twist perhaps quite similar to Superman's skin).

Also remember that a miss is not always an actual miss, but could instead be a hit that does no damage, meaning natural armor should still be a bonus to AC and not used as another means of damage reduction. If you want damage reduced so badly, the simplest solution is to turn natural armor bonuses in actual damage reduction modifiers, leaving out the complex stuff. Oh, and to take the Superman example a step further, remember that his skin looks exactly as a normal human's, yet is tougher in every way. The skin is no more armored, it's just tougher, plain and simple. Perhaps that is what all natural armor is? Or would you rule the Superman (remember, he's not magical in any way) would lose his natural armor bonus in an antimagic field because his natural armor is actually supernatural armor?

Anyway, a similar explanation exists for real armor. There is no need to reduce dexterity, because the current rules cover everything. Remember that adventurers are far more powerful than we are in real life, and probably more powerful than any real person. They are TRAINED to be able to be agile even in armor. This is a fantasy game, NOT a medieval game, never forget that.

As for Harm . . . I've been through this before, and I favor the current version without any modifications. Yeah, it's powerful, but so are many other spells of the same level, and the enemies can use it on you just as you can on them. If anything, Heal and Harm should be higher level spells.

Moving on . . . Hoping you consider my words carefully and remember that I say them with the utmost respect . . . Time for the questions!

1) You stated that Orcus is currently 44 HD in D&D3. Where did you find that information, and where can I get it? (Orcus is the main enemy in my campaign.)

2) What is your solution for Vorpal weapons that you have spoke of?

3) What is your system for determining CR above 20?

Thanks for listening!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK!

Hey Anubis mate!

I have a correction, a suggestion, and several questions for you.

Sure, fire away!

First, the correction. I noticed that you posted earlier about a Vorpal Longsword +5 costing 100,000 gp and taking 200 days to create. That is incorrect. By the rules, you must take 1 day for every 1,000 gp, so the time needed would be 100 days, not 200 days. You made this mistake on all of your examples.

Can't fathom why I had that wrong there!?

Second, the suggestion.

You seem to be making things far more complex than they need to be.

On the contrary, I have simply opened eyes to the fact that things don't make sense as they currently stand.

D&D3 is a good simple and simple, and there is no need to make drastic changes for the sake of realism,

I was never focusing on realism, that was simply a byproduct of doing things right.

All I ever wanted was for natural armour to make sense in a non-arbitrary way.

especially where there are already logical explanations.

If the explanations were 'in fact' logical then the system itself would be logical, which, it obviously isn't.

As far as natural armor is concerned, the current system is perfect and should be left alone.

On the contrary, the current system may seem perfect within the microcosm of the core rules but not to the trained eye.

My reasoning is that "natural" armor does NOT always mean natural as in "tough hide" or "scales" or the like,

Natural armour means natural armour!

You shouldn't have to look for hidden meanings.

nor should natural armor be used to reduce damage.

Technically it should.

However, this represents a fundamental Core Rule change - which is why I will present it only as an optional rule (even though its one I advocate, and makes sense).

Simply put, that is the exact reasoning behind having "natural armor" and "damage reduction".

Under the current system:

Natural armour is akin to Natural Deflection
Damage Reduction is akin to Supernatural Resilience

Under your current proposals,

Under my current optional proposals...

damage reduction should be negated in an antimagic field just as supernatural armor is.

Damage Reduction IS negated in an Anti-Magic Field. (See Monster Manual pg. 9)

This is not the purpose of antimagic, however

Anti-Magic doesn't need a purpose its a phenomena.

...and your proposals overly complicate matters.

I am positive there is light at the end of this tunnel.

Damage reduction, simply put, comes in one of two forms: 1) natural toughness that reduces damage (i.e. barbarian damage reduction and hardness)

Yes.

eg. DR 2/- (not being penetrated by a magic weapon denotes its natural, as opposed to supernatural/magical)

This is also what I would class as Resilience (so that its not confused with Damage Reduction).

I have no problem believing that over time a barbarians skin weatherbeaten by the elements and accustomed to adversity and would become tough like leather - not far beyond that though.

This was also why I advocate adding Hardness/Resilience to a Golems qualities. Although this would be subsumed by Natural Armour in the event of using the optional rule.

and 2) mystical (NOT magical, this would be an Extraordinary ability) toughness that requires a special means to defeat.

The ability is either natural/extraordinary or supernatural/magical.

Natural armor, the way I see it, also comes in two forms: 1) truly "natural" armor (i.e. scales, hide, etc.)

You hide behind the 'truly' prefix. Natural armour is just that - natural armour!

It does exactly what it says on the tin!

and 2) a "mystical" (again, NOT magical, this would still be an Extraordinary ability) form of natural armor that is a result of a reality the real world can only imagine,

The philosophy behind an ability might well be 'mystical' but not the properties of that ability.

and although some things LOOK tougher, that doesn't always mean they are,

True. But the question you have to ask yourself is why!?

If a Succubus is 'mystically' tough, then why isn't a Bebilith also 'mystically' augmented and subsequently yet tougher still!?

and as such, natural armor is thus concidered to be a manifestation of a different reality that we can't possibly comprehend

I simply can't accept this illogical definition.

(IOW, natural amor is neither magical nor psionic nor supernatural,

Nor even 'natural' it would seem.

but rather a strange twist perhaps quite similar to Superman's skin).

Superman is somewhat anachronistic.

(I'm only well versed in Marvel Superheroes and Villains, not DC Comic personalities).

But lets take a closer look...

If you attempt to quantify his Resilience it would presumably be akin to diamond (about 240/inch) or better?

Also remember that a miss is not always an actual miss, but could instead be a hit that does no damage, meaning natural armor should still be a bonus to AC and not used as another means of damage reduction.

It doesn't logically state that armour should not reduce damage, what it does is tell us that the current mechanics do not.

If you want damage reduced so badly, the simplest solution is to turn natural armor bonuses in actual damage reduction modifiers, leaving out the complex stuff.

Thats the option I am presenting.

Thats what I advocate doing for all beings except Outsiders.

Oh, and to take the Superman example a step further, remember that his skin looks exactly as a normal human's, yet is tougher in every way.

As soon as I saw the Superman analogy I knew you would use this argument, however it doesn't hold water...

The skin is no more armored, it's just tougher, plain and simple.

Lets look at 4 sets of comparisons:

#1 A normal human and a Rhinoceros.

The human has no natural armour and the Rhino has natural armour +7 (I would have determined +9 but thats not important for this experiment)

The Rhino is large, if we increase the human to Large size it would gain NA +2.

So therefore the Rhino can be seen (pound for pound as they say) to have NA x3.5 better than a human (I would say 4.5)

#2 Superman and a Rhino beast from the planet Krypton (both now on earth)

If we assume that the once normal skin of Superman is elevated to diamond like resilience then we must also assume that the Rhino beast would be tougher still!

If Superman has a NA +240 then the Rhino beast will have (at least) NA +840 (I would say +1080)

#3 Succubus and a Bebilith.

Supposedly a (medium sized) Succubus has NA +9 and a (huge) Bebilith NA +16. Therefore a huge Succubus would have NA +23. That is practically a difference of 150%.

So they would have us believe that the Succubus (which as far as we can see is unarmoured) is (pound for pound) 150% tougher than the chitinous plated Bebilith.

If you apply the Superman analogy to the Succubus and concoct a quasi-mystical excuse for its natural armour then armoured demons should be proportionally tougher still!

#4 Graz'zt and Demogorgon

It defies all logic (and balance) that the relatively normal skinned Graz'zt should have the same 'natural armour' as the scaly monstrous Demogorgon.

Hes smaller, faster (more dextrous) and could subsequently don armour himself.

I'll expound on these two further in a subsequent post.

Perhaps that is what all natural armor is? Or would you rule the Superman (remember, he's not magical in any way) would lose his natural armor bonus in an antimagic field because his natural armor is actually supernatural armor?

He would certainly lose it when exposed to Kryptonite.

Supermans armour would be natural (on Earth). True he does not look armoured (I said he was anachronistic) but his Kryptonian physiology/biology is alien. We must assume all Kryptonians exposed to the rays of a yellow sun would be commensurately augmented.

Likewise we must apply this logic to Outsiders.

Anyway, a similar explanation exists for real armor. There is no need to reduce dexterity, because the current rules cover everything.

The current rules (again) don't make sense.

Remember that adventurers are far more powerful than we are in real life, and probably more powerful than any real person.

Only within game mechanics.

They are TRAINED to be able to be agile even in armor.

They may well be trained to be agile in armour but they would be far more agile without it.

Are we to assume that a 1st-level Fighter in Full Platemail (with Dex 12) is as agile in his armour as Odin in (for the sake of example) +30 Full Platemail with his Dex 83!? No, of course not!

This is a fantasy game, NOT a medieval game, never forget that.

Even a fantasy game must have a basis in reality though!

As for Harm . . . I've been through this before, and I favor the current version without any modifications.

Thats certainly your prerogative, but not something I would advocate.

Yeah, it's powerful, but so are many other spells of the same level,

None are so ridiculously unbalanced though!

and the enemies can use it on you just as you can on them.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If anything, Heal and Harm should be higher level spells.

True.

Moving on . . . Hoping you consider my words carefully and remember that I say them with the utmost respect . . .

Of course mate! Thats what this thread is for! People discussing the WPS.

Time for the questions!

1) You stated that Orcus is currently 44 HD in D&D3. Where did you find that information, and where can I get it? (Orcus is the main enemy in my campaign.)

Its from Dungeon #89.

However they are not the official stats!

2) What is your solution for Vorpal weapons that you have spoke of?

Simply that I have disassociated the vorpal ability with critical hit. All vorpal weapons decapitate on a 'natural 20' regardless of critical threat range. Further they are not affected by 'keen' or 'improved critical' capabilities. They also ignore stipulations such as immune to critical hits. A Flesh Golem would not be destroyed by decapitation but it will still lose its head.

3) What is your system for determining CR above 20?

I'll post this, in its entirety, a little later.

Thanks for listening!

Always nice to hear from you mate!

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm . . . I don't think your succubus/bebilith example is a very good argument against the current natural armor system.

What I am saying is that your thoughts of supernatural armor is correct, I just don't think it is a matter of "magic", and it therefore should not be affected by antimagic.

As for defining "natural", "natural" must not be limited to things such as skin toughness and scales and the like. It covers EVERYTHING that is natural. All five senses are natural, not just touch and sight. Like I said, just because it looks tough doesn't mean it is. In a similar way, "supernatural" armor should not be considered a Supernatural ability. (The only reasoning for it to be called "supernatural" armor is because no other appropriate word exists, although "extranatural" armor could certainly fit.)

Supernatural (phenominal) armor should be considered an Extraordinary ability, and thus there is no point to seperating it from natural armor, because the extraordinary ability is in fact a "natural" ability for such creatures, not a result of any magic. Perhaps you could compare it to the Paladin ability Divine Grace? (Divine Grace is not negated in an antimagic field because it is neither spell-like nor supernatural.)

Or perhaps an antimagic field should also send all Outsiders and extradimensional creatures to their home plane? Um, no . . .

THAT is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Sorry I haven't posted the CR addendum yet, I will do so later today.

Hmmm . . . I don't think your succubus/bebilith example is a very good argument against the current natural armor system.

Actually I thought it was pretty much spot on!

The difference of opinion we have seems to stem from the definition of natural armour. I want it to mean 'natural armour' and you want it to mean something else.

What I am saying is that your thoughts of supernatural armor is correct, I just don't think it is a matter of "magic", and it therefore should not be affected by antimagic.

Which is exactly why I am presenting the idea as optional.

Under AC listings I will have Natural and Supernatural bonuses seperated.

Therefore:

- anyone who wants to use the Core Rules can do so by just looking at the AC figure.
- anyone who wants to acknowledge the difference between natural and supernatural (but still adhere to core rules regarding armour) can do so by simply negating supernatural armour in an Anti-Magic Field.
- anyone who wants to use the optional rules for armour (reducing damage instead of increasing AC) can do so by removing natural armour from AC and making it a Resilience Bonus.

So I am pretty much catering for every eventuality.

As for defining "natural", "natural" must not be limited to things such as skin toughness and scales and the like. It covers EVERYTHING that is natural. All five senses are natural, not just touch and sight.

The ability to avoid damage using natural 'senses' would be accredited to dodge/dexterity.

Like I said, just because it looks tough doesn't mean it is.

Perhaps that was a hasty generalism on my part (would a tank made of glass and a tank made of diamond actually look superficially different, probably not).

However, the properties of those materials is a factor.

Thin demon flesh (succubus) is not as tough as thick demon plating (bebilith), to assume as much is illogical.

If we assume demon (Succubus) skin is nine times tougher than human skin then Bebilith plating must be eight times beyond that (and thats before applying size differences! Works out at Natural Armour +149)

So obviously demon skin isn't 'naturally' far more resilient than human skin.

So the succubus 'natural armour +9' must be some sort of inherantly magical/supernatural ability.

In a similar way, "supernatural" armor should not be considered a Supernatural ability.

The ability to stop/halt attacks without reason must be supernatural.

(The only reasoning for it to be called "supernatural" armor is because no other appropriate word exists, although "extranatural" armor could certainly fit.)

It doesn't matter what its name is! (that ones for Triple H if hes reading )

Supernatural (phenominal) armor should be considered an Extraordinary ability, and thus there is no point to seperating it from natural armor, because the extraordinary ability is in fact a "natural" ability for such creatures, not a result of any magic. Perhaps you could compare it to the Paladin ability Divine Grace? (Divine Grace is not negated in an antimagic field because it is neither spell-like nor supernatural.)

Divine Grace could be accredited to 'certainty' through force of will - which boosts saving throws.

I don't see how that applies to our discussion though!?

Or perhaps an antimagic field should also send all Outsiders and extradimensional creatures to their home plane? Um, no . . .

No.

THAT is the point I was trying to make.

I understood the point you were trying to make I just don't agree with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Challenge Ratings above 20

Sorry for the delay. Here is the revised Challenge Rating System I am using in the Worship Points System copied verbatim from the original post with a few recent addendums.

Okay, I gave some serious thoughts to determining accurate Challenge Ratings above 20th-level today and I believe I have the answer!?

Firstly, this work concentrates on levels/hit dice above 20th.

The premise is based on a single character of 'x'+4 Challenge Rating being roughly equivalent to four characters of CR 'x'.

eg. A being of CR24 is supposedly equal to four beings of CR20.

Okay here is my solution; its pretty simple:

Actual Levels
1-20th_______CR = +1/1 Level
21-40th______CR = +1/2 Levels
41-80th______CR = +1/4 Levels
81-160th_____CR = +1/8 Levels
161-320th____CR = +1/16 Levels
321-640th____CR = +1/32 Levels
641-1280th___CR = +1/64 Levels
1281-2560th__CR = +1/128 Levels
2561-5120th__CR = +1/256 Levels
5120-10240th_CR = +1/512 Levels

Examples
30th-level character = CR25
40th-level character = CR30
60th-level character = CR35
80th-level character = CR40
160th-level character = CR50
320th-level character = CR60
640th-level character = CR70
1280th-level character = CR80
2560th-level character = CR90
5120th-level character = CR100

eg. Elminster 35th-level Chosen of Mystra
Formerly CR39 (it gives CR45 but that is unfounded) now CR29 - which I think is more reflective of his power.

I merely extrapolated the tables to show what an actual CR100 being would be like. Even the most powerful deities in my Worship Points System won't be approaching CR100 (although Time Lords will be reasonably close to that). To calculate experience points gained:

As I mentioned last night this is actually very, very simple (I should have posted it along with my rules in the above post).

Okay, say the parties average Level is 60 (page 166 of the DMG shows that EXP for an equal CR is a multiple of 300).
So 60 x 300 = 18,000

Therefore a 60th-level party fighting an equal CR encounter will gain 18,000 XP.

Now remember that under my method a 60th-level character only equals CR35. So a character party that averages 60th-level will also average CR35!

Now since encounters are only recommended at between 8 below or 8 above the party average CR, use this following table to calculate XP:

CR -8 = divide by 16
CR -7 = divide by 12
CR -6 = divide by 8
CR -5 = divide by 6
CR -4 = divide by 4
CR -3 = divide by 3
CR -2 = divide by 2
CR -1 = divide by 1.5
CR +/-0 = Party Average Level x 300
CR +1 = x1.5
CR +2 = x2
CR +3 = x3
CR +4 = x4
CR +5 = x6
CR +6 = x8
CR +7 = x12
CR +8 = x16

eg #1. a 60th-level party fighting an 80th-level character (CR40)
60 x 300 = 18,000
CR40 is +5 the parties average CR which means x6 EXP.
18,000 x 6 = 108,000 EXP

eg #2. a 40th-level party fighting a 22nd-level Lich (CR22)
40 x 300 = 12,000
CR22 is -8 the parties average CR which means divide EXP by 16.
12,000 divided by 16 = 750 EXP

So using the above technique you could determine the following averages:

Outsiders:
Old CR = HD x1
+1 (1/2-4HD)
+2 (5-9HD)
+3 (10-14HD)
+4 (15-19HD)
+6 (20-29HD)
+8 (30-39HD)
+12 (40-59HD)
+16 (60-79HD)
+24 (80-119HD)
etc.

eg.
Balor 13+3 = CR16
Planetar 14+3 = CR17
Solar 22+6, Old CR = CR28, New CR = CR24.

Dragons:
Old CR = HD x3/4
eg. Great Wyrm Red Dragon 40HD = CR30
New CR = CR25

Magical Beasts:
Old CR = HD x1/2
eg. Tarrasque 48HD = CR24
New CR = CR22

SPECIAL CASES:

eg. Athentia the Great Sphinx (from CC2)
Magical Beast
28HD, 20th-level Sorceror, 12th-level Druid (32 effective class level benefits).
Old CR = CR28 (class level benefits max out HD)
New CR = CR24

eg. Bahamut (from MotP)
Dragon
53HD, 20th-level Cleric and 20th-level Sorceror (40 effective class level benefits).
Old CR = 40 (40 of its HD maxed due to class level benefits); remaining 13HD treated as Dragon x3/4 = +9. Total 49*
New CR = CR32

eg. Tiamat (from MotP)
Dragon
49HD, 20th-level Cleric and 20th-level Sorceror (40 effective class level benefits).
Old CR = 40 (40 of its HD maxed due to class level benefits); remaining 9HD treated as Dragon x3/4 = +6. Tiamat gains an extra +1/ additional head. Total 50*
New CR = CR32

eg. Orcus (from Dungeon #89)
Dragon
44HD, 20th-level Cleric and 20th-level Sorceror (40 effective class level benefits).
Old CR = 40 (40 of its HD maxed due to class level benefits); remaining 4HD treated as an Outsider = +4. Total 44*
New CR = CR31

*For Bahamut, Tiamat and Orcus I would also add the Outsider Bonus (which effectively represents the Divinity Templates in the Worship Points System. So under my auspices each would get an additional +12 (for being 40-59HD) to their 'old CR total'

So...

Bahamut (revised old CR) now CR61; New CR35.
Tiamat (revised old CR) now CR62; New CR35.
Orcus (revised old CR) now CR56; New CR34.

Any comments!?

 

[S'mon]

I'd have no problem with an A-M shell dispelling Outsiders who voluntarily enter it, since they can't naturally exist on that plane. But having it hedge them out (or go down if forced against them) is fine too.