D&D 5E Theatre of the Mind or Miniatures?

For the majority of combats in D&D 5E, I...

  • play with Miniatures

    Votes: 261 52.9%
  • use the Theatre of the Mind (no minis)

    Votes: 186 37.7%
  • don't play D&D 5E.

    Votes: 46 9.3%

aramis erak

Legend
I started with a mix of AD&D 1E and Moldvay Basic. We didn't use minis proper, we did use chessboards and assorted tokens when things got confusing about ranges. This was circa 1981. First time I saw a group playing that I wasn't involved in was about summer 1983... and they were using minis on grid (and playing using Arduin Grimoire) - saw them at a library.

I moved to playing Traveller in fall of 83... which was when I really got to TOTM style play - but Traveller also had Snapshot, so when I needed grids, I had counters to use with them, and detailed expansions for better on-grid play.

Then, in 85, I got into FASA Trek... explicitly gridded Action Point combat... but seldom used the maps for personal combat.

I got back into D&D in college - and it was 2E, and no minis in sight at my games... but the arduin group was still playing (in the same library), and still using minis on a grid.

For D&D, I stick with tokens but disallow minis, for reasons mentioned upthread. I've found this to be superior in most RPG play.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
"The Grid" was a different innovation, entirely. ... But it was really in the mid 80s that battlemats came into vogue - though, even then not so much for D&D - it was late 2e C&T that took full advantage of such surfaces. And, it wasn't until 3.0 that D&D finally stopped trying to ponce around on the 'role' side of the role v roll divide, and went 'back to the dungeon.,' and, thus, it's miniatures wargame roots.

Emphasis on 'advocate,' yes - perhaps even 'evangelize.' From the playtest on through publication, Next/5e has been very enthused about TotM, really pushing it as some sort of ideal. Much like it did for DM Empowerment - which has been a definite success, and, for my money, saved the game this edition cycle.

2e, IIRC did drop the old wargame jargon of scale inches (with two different scales, no less). Like 5e after it, 2e used familiar (to Americans) measurement in feet. While that in no way facilitates implementing TotM, it may make the decision to use TotM feel more natural.

It is useful to distinguish minis from ‘grid’. People playing 1e-2e could use minis. But it was just as easy to play with or without them. It was 3e that made the grid mandatory, having new rules referring to explicit positioning, for opportunity attacks and so on.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It is useful to distinguish minis from ‘grid’. People playing 1e-2e could use minis. But it was just as easy to play with or without them. It was 3e that made the grid mandatory, having new rules referring to explicit positioning, for opportunity attacks and so on.
It is an important distinction to make. Minis used on a play surface with or without terrain, required you to measure distances somehow (tape-measures, bits of string, whatever), and positioning had little to go on beyond the base the figure was mounted to. Early D&D and 1e AD&D were written with that in mind, using scale inches, and giving areas in geometric shapes that could be worked out the table. They were adequate rules for that. 2e took very nearly the exact same rules and just dropped the scale conversion, giving everything in feet, and that mostly in 10' increments corresponding to the 1e scale. In both cases, mini's and a play surface were a definite advantage in handling positioning, movement, ranges and areas.

The impact of using a grid was exactly this: You could position minis in squares, instead of by base-to-base contact. And, you could count squares instead of measuring. These both made the use of minis a little quicker and easier. That is the whole impact of using a grid.

The myth that 3.5 or 4e made the grid "mandatory" or that 1e 'required' minis is a total fabrication. In all three cases, though the games presented rules for using minis and a scale of some sort, it was trivial to convert from that scale to the exact same feet as in 2e or 5e or whatever other edition or game you think 'supports' TotM by virtue of lacking such a scale to convert from.

Similarly, rules like the 1e 'parting shot' or backstab, or 3e AoOs, or 4e forced movement, in no way 'require' minis or a surface or a more convenient gridded surface. They're just rules, and converting from the jargon of 'contact' or 'threatened area' to natural language like adjacent or with in reach or whatever you prefer, is trivial. For instance, say it's 2004 and you have an orc charging a fighter who is wielding a longspear. Do you really want to pretend that you need a pair of minis and a grid to determine if the orc can reach the fighter, and will risk get stabbed with the longspear on the way? No. If you can track all the to-the-foot movements, positions and geometric area effects in 5e, you can certainly handle some 5'-granularity movement, straight-line charges, threatened areas, and/or firecubes.

There's simply not a meaningful difference among D&D editions when it comes to adapting them to TotM. They're none of them particularly suited to it. The impression must come from how much better the rules for some of them are when it comes to using minis, creating an expectation that they must trade-off and be somehow 'worse' for TotM. In fact, there's no such tradeoff.

Facilitating TotM is something that games can and have done. D&D just isn't one of those games. You can mod D&D to make TotM easier though, as with Wrecan's SARN-FU, and you can find clones that have better rules for ToTM, like 13th Age.

Where 5e shines, and thus gets away with evangelizing TotM without /mechanically/ supporting it, though, is DM Empowerment. A confidently-empowered DM can sweep mechanics, like to-the-foot granularity or 45-degree cones, that get in the way of TotM under the rug with a simple off the cuff ruling ("Yes, you're close enough"), or facilitate TotM with explicit house rules. That's really where using TotM makes sense in 5e, not because the mechanics are good for, but because running it that way re-enforces the value of and need for the Empowered DM's role in ruling on and resolving all aspects of the game. Players who are accustomed to asking, every round, if they can reach an enemy or how many monsters can catch in their fireball without engulfing their allies, are learning to accept DM judgement as a matter of course. And, the DM is learning to make rulings as a matter of course, for that matter.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I agree DM arbitration helps facilitate visualization by handwaving precise distances. 3e saw the rise of rules lawyers, while 4e even flirted with the elimination of DM arbitration. In light of clear (and reasonably consistent) rules, handwaving became more objectionable, culturally. Thus using rules-as-written, including the need for precise positioning, became more obligatory. Whence the loss of mind style.

The rules for precise positioning became ubiquitous - in every spell, in every space.

In my experience, 3e made the grid ‘mandatory’.

I cannot play 3e well without a grid. The price of a grid is my loss of first-person visual immersion.

4e is even worse, but 3e already interfered with mental gaming.

Regarding 1e-2e, I never saw anyone using string to measure out mini tactics even if an occasional encounter made use minis and coins. It was mostly mental, with occasional sketches, and sometimes a picture of a creature.

The only time, I ever used a string was in 4e, once, in a dispute about precise positioning during aerial combat. The DM forgot that counting squares diagonally also included upwards, meaning the mini of the hostile who was very far away was in fact within the number of squares of damage spells. Unhappy with the situation, the DM insisted on geometry.

None of these positioning requirements is conducive to my ability to play mentally.



In my own experience, *I* can play mental D&D in 1e-2e. *I* cannot do so in 3e-4e.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
There are places where 5e harms theater of the mind, especially with regard to unnecessarily precise distances of weapon ranges and spell ranges.

It is much better to handwave all distances as:

Melee (1 yard) - swing
Close (10 yards) - throw
Distant (100 yards) - shoot

If reach becomes a factor, the distance doubles, but basically means, the reacher might be able to attack while the target is unable to return an attack (except possibly at a disadvantage).



Heh, unnecessarily precise amounts of time for rituals doesnt affect mind play, but it is similarly useless and annoying.
 


madrivi

First Post
When i Dm'ed 2e i allways used the Theatre of the Mind, but in my 5e sessions, with rookie players, i have found that TotM not allways works with them, so i'm using a mat but more for where they are than for measuring movement and s.

My intention is to use the mat less and less as they learn how to play.

More fun using the brain IMHO. ;)
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
Definitely without.

For us, 5E is what we use when we want something more like AD&D but playable as written. And playing AD&D means no minis. We've been together as a group long enough that we trust each other's judgement with respect to position on the battlefield.

(I also like the frustration and the memories of frustration that playing this way triggers... so that we can get back to 4E as quickly as possible again. :) )
 

Yaarel

He Mage
When i Dm'ed 2e i allways used the Theatre of the Mind, but in my 5e sessions, with rookie players, i have found that TotM not allways works with them, so i'm using a mat but more for where they are than for measuring movement and s.

My intention is to use the mat less and less as they learn how to play.

More fun using the brain IMHO. ;)

D&D is significant in the generation gap between a ‘literate’ culture that reads books and a ‘post-literate’ culture that interacts faster and more visually via computers.

Even so, the mental visualization that is vital via the book culture, is powerful and able to achieve aspects that the icon-driven media cannot achieve (yet). It is worthwhile to learn how to rely on the ‘brain’.

Theater of the mind is excellent exercise.
 

houser2112

Explorer
D&D is significant in the generation gap between a ‘literate’ culture that reads books and a ‘post-literate’ culture that interacts faster and more visually via computers.

Even so, the mental visualization that is vital via the book culture, is powerful and able to achieve aspects that the icon-driven media cannot achieve (yet). It is worthwhile to learn how to rely on the ‘brain’.

Theater of the mind is excellent exercise.
Surely you didn't mean to insult the intelligence of people that prefer miniatures? I read lots of books, and have no problem visualizing events as they happen in a story. The difference between reading a story and playing an RPG is that reading a story is passive and RPGs are interactive. I don't make decisions based on the placement of characters when I read a story, I just read about them. When I'm playing an RPG, I need to know the exact placement of combatants to make informed decisions.

Imagine you're the general of an army. Would you rather be in an impervious, undetectable bubble above the battlefield with perfect vision of your divisions, or would you rather rely on reports conducted by horseback messenger or radio to make your decisions? I don't think you'd appreciate being told that the latter is excellent exercise.
 

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