Themes article up

IMO mechanics are worth infinitely more than concept. A concept needs mechanics to be effective, otherwise it's at best false and at worst an outright lie. Without mechanics to back it up, you don't have a concept; at least not a feasible one. This has been my personal problem with D&D since 3.x and even since 2nd edition, whereby I had a concept that should have been valid and the mechanics didn't support at all or, best case scenario, supported midway through the life of my character (e.g. making an effective Fighter/Mage class in 3.x without using the Duskblade or some of the UA rules like the Battle Sorcerer - you had to be minimum I think like 12th level or so to even begin to touch upon the right concept for a fighter/mage).

Mechanics alone can exist without a concept because it's up to the individual to create the concept; isn't this how generic rule systems work? You don't get a concept, just the rules and it's up to you to decide upon the concept.

Well, there is concept, then there is execution, which is mechanics. Now, when you create a character in some generics based system your concept MIGHT be inspired by existing mechanics, but the mechanics were put there in the first place to support the concept, or a range of related concepts. You wouldn't create a Hero System character who's CONCEPTS are 'blast', and 'slam', and 'damage reduction'. You might look at those mechanics and think "Oh, I can make a guy that shoots a bow, can knocks someone down with a body blow, and has magic armor that deflects attacks." but the given mechanics are just support for those elements in play. Maybe it doesn't matter to a particular player what they play and they get all their inspiration from the mechanics of the game, but the character itself is concept, embodied in game mechanics. The reason those mechanics EXIST is so you can make characters armed with bows, blaster rifles, psychic mind blasts, or whatever you can imagine. If the 'blast' mechanic didn't exist, then it would have to be invented in order to support those concepts if they were going to appear in the game, not the other way around.

The case is very similar in 4e. Not being a generic system the case is much clearer, the mechanics of longsword exist to support the concept of a long bladed sword type weapon used in one hand. The game designers didn't sit down and create random assemblies of weapon stats and then give them names. Nor really did the designers of some generic system, they simply painted with broader strokes and based their mechanics on more abstract conceptual grounds.

Now consider the obverse. Many concepts can exist with no supporting mechanics at all. D&D got along for over a decade with no skill system at all worth mentioning, yet characters were regularly performing skilled tasks either according to DM fiat or with some kind of ad-hoc mechanism. Original D&D didn't distinguish between swords and maces but the concepts certain existed and PCs were regularly equipped with a mace, or a longsword, or a spear. Nobody sat down and decried that they couldn't have a longsword because it lacked mechanics. The specific mechanics for each weapon only came along later because people thought it would be interesting to distinguish different weapon types.

Many concepts require no mechanics at all. In fact NO concept absolutely requires mechanics, you can tell stories with no rules at all, mechanics are a convenience. Without a concept for them to reflect you don't have an RPG, you have chess.
 

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Folks,

It's the same few of us arguing. At this point, I think we've all communicated our core concepts and had a few rounds of everyone illustrating our points. If we still have people on different sides of the discussion, I think it's time to agree to disagree.

A great game has great concepts AND mechanics that support and encourage those concepts. I think we're all (myself included) arguing one side or the other of it. In addition, some of us are optimistic ("these add a lot") and some not so much ("these don't compare to the Dark Sun themes").

We made our points, let them stand on their own.

xkcd: Duty Calls

Cheers,
Blue
 

Well, I think Beastmaster Rangers kick ass ;)
Well, that does explain why you think the vampire is a viable striker and you must really not care about mechanics! Because the BMR pet is best as basically a flanking buddy for a bow ranger.
So MV and MV2 are horribly flawed because they weren't aimed at the specific aspect of play that you're interested in seeing more support for?
No, you should read my point again. My point is that it should support all three tiers. Other books did, why not the two MVs?
Low level monsters NEEDED BADLY to have another look.
Nonsense. Heroic tier monsters WERE THE LEAST AFFECTED by the maths changes.
Calling it 'bad' is just not warranted.
I never called it bad, I called it disappointing while simultaneously praising its high quality monsters.

One can do BOTH at exactly the same time. Shocking I know!
Every epic monster in that book means a heroic tier monster or a paragon monster that has to be dropped on the cutting room floor. Consider that. Take a balanced perspective.
I have and maybe you should. Maybe you should consider that epic has the LEAST viable monsters (that aren't demons, I mean if you REALLY like demons you are set at epic tier. Hope your PCs REALLY enjoy fighting demons for 10 levels). Maybe you should consider epic monsters are MOST damaged by the new maths changes, desperately need the most work in terms of updating their powers and that epic solos especially are the most worthless monsters in 4E.

I can gladly sacrifice a few heroic monsters out of the hundreds of viable heroic tier creatures. I'm not lacking for choice in heroic tier and wasn't even before MV. I AM lacking for choice in epic tier and still am.
And I disagree. IMHO you're too caught up in mechanics. You've become far too focused on dice and numbers and your vision of the game has become too narrow.
I disagree. I like flavor/fluff as much as anyone, but fluff is malleable but mechanics are how that fluff is expressed in game terms. If the fluff is poor, who cares because good mechanics can save it. I can put my own fluff on it if I want and fix it. Poor mechanics are harder to solve (as debates like this thread show). It means having to fiddle with rules directly, something I've rarely had to do in 4Es lifespan before recently.

But if mechanics are bad, then the class or concept cannot support what it is trying to do in game terms. This is the problem with the animal master who has the worlds most vulnerable minion and when it pops, he basically can't make any use of his powers for an entire adventure (which could be 3 levels or so. That's a LONG time). He's really not that much of an "animal master".
By simply making an "avoid necrotic resistance" feat or two (or whatever the exact mechanics would be) simply moves necrotic resistance from something different, interesting, SCARY
lol.

You mean the damage type that nobody takes because it's generally regarded as useless? Because that's probably what you meant. I can't tell you the last time I saw a PC took a necrotic keyword power - for obvious reasons.
Vampire is an awesome class because it depicts a vampire quite well. I've said it before and I will say it again. Mechanics which fail to provide any kind of CONCEPT which gives us the ability to do something genuinely new is worthless.
And CONCEPTS that fail entirely on their MECHANICS are utterly worthless.
I haven't spent much time analyzing the Binder, but I can tell you that the class works, and in fact IMHO provides a more thematically coherent warlock
Um. It really doesn't and perhaps you should actually try a Binder before making such comments. It's actually a stripped down warlock that can't deal damage OR out control a regular warlock (it's fixed encounters powers are not good and its dailies can be equally pinched by the standard warlock).
2) AGAIN, CONCEPT TRUMPS MECHANICS. This is a NECESSITY.
If you want to add CB filler and options that are strictly inferior to the game, sure. Mechanics are important, because if a character concept is wonderful but cannot express that concept mechanically, then it is worthless. There are too many examples in 4E of having a concept and expressing it with A+ results mechanically. I simply think you have too narrow a view of the game, where you think that classes must be mechanically gimped/worthless to express a concept. In good design, mechanics are not sacrificed for concepts: Instead they express them extremely well.
And we agree on this point. My issue here is you're condemnation applies equally to every single 4e product released by WotC.
Nope.
Sorry, but that's just you projecting and without a valid point either. I mean MM3 last year supported epic tier brilliantly. So did the book that followed it right after (Dark Sun Creature Catalog). So did Demonomicon (though we have enough demons already). All three were fantastic books.

Then there was Dark Sun Campaign Setting: Really, do you NEED me to say any more here? Psionic Power was fantastic, really adding some great options and actually changed my opinions about psionics I loved it that much. I also liked Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms.

My objections to books like HoS and these themes are MECHANICAL. I've explained my position multiple times, but suffice to say you are simply wrong on this point.
I think the super critical Aegeri that cannot be pleased though is not the voice I was enjoying.
I've been extremely happy with 4E for over 2 years, so this is nonsense. Heck, I've repeatedly said what I want and it's not even that hard.
You're going to tell me that Student of Caiphon was just fine? It wasn't obvious it would be poached?
Of course it was, never argued otherwise but back then Dragon content wasn't "rigorously" tested by Wizards R+D. In addition to this, Student of Caiphon was poached because Radiant - unlike necrotic just so you know - is one of the best damage types in the game and has excellent support. Now that SoC is Warlock only it is perfectly fine, because Warlocks could use the PP and its great for them.

At the same time, mechanically, Student of Caiphon was a great PP. Flavorwise AND mechanically. It was a complete success. I can tell you now: Not many classes are going to be poaching *anything* from HoS classes. Except maybe some half-elves that want to take the vampires +2 accuracy charm powers (but that's a corner case and probably not worth the feat investment).
is you've gone from focusing on what is fun and interesting
Of which the stuff from HoS is neither. That's the problem, because when something is poor mechanically that has direct repercussions at the game table: It's less fun. There are reasons certain things are left to die in 4E.
I perceive that the outlook of some people has changed.
I disagree so vehemently here I cannot disagree any harder. The game HAS changed and so has its quality. I'm just not acting like an ostrich about it :)
A Binder that manifests bound spirits is great.
Have you ever considered that the problem there is a normal warlock can take the binders dailies, be better at them than a binder, do more damage AND has better control powers in its encounters? I suggest reading through this thread to get an idea just what the problem with the binder is.

Quite frankly, I don't think you think about the mechanics or how they impact the game. Mechanics are what is expressed directly at a table. Flavor and thematics do not save poor mechanics - otherwise nobody would be asking wizards for support for Runepriests/Seekers (who desperately need it). That is an undeniable fact.

Edit:
Many concepts require no mechanics at all. In fact NO concept absolutely requires mechanics, you can tell stories with no rules at all, mechanics are a convenience. Without a concept for them to reflect you don't have an RPG, you have chess.
You can tell stories without rules, but you cannot play a game without them.

That's kind of where your entire argument falls over :)
 
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so pretty much its damned if you do, damned if you dont for them.

If they released DS style themes the cries would have been:

"ACK! Power Creep!"
"EEK! Why wont my essentials subclass use these?"
"MWUHAHA! See the abandoned the essentials formats because it was a failure, i was right and all other opinions are invalid!"
and
"They took away the thing that made DS special! Its a harsh world and this is how the PCs could survive!!"

What we get now is not bad at all, infact, considering that you got them instead of NONE at all, im damned grateful to get some official support, yet im still hearing...

"ARRR!! These arent powerful enough for my taste!"
"MEEP! These are too powerful, too much creep!"
"Mulp! Why arent these like the DS ones! I demand sameness and refuse to use those instead!"
and
"RWARR!! Why are essentials classes allowed to associate with this material! HOW DARE THE SUPPORT OTHER CLASSES I DONT LIKE!!!"

Also, the nitpicking quote thing is really annoying, i was hoping to talk about the particulars of the actual themes themselves, not a forum for airing your Dislike of some edition or perceived notion of that it being an edition or what not, thats what the Wotc forums are for.
 

so pretty much its damned if you do, damned if you dont for them.
Well, maybe. I'm not sure.

Like I said, I congratulate them on achieving maximum possible compatibility. :) That doesn't mean I love 'em, though.

I was personally fine with Dark Sun themes being less useful for E-style classes. It's worked fine in my home game so far. Part of the reason you're using an E-style class is maybe because you don't want to be bothered with picking something new every level.

Still, if they had released DS-style themes, we may very well have seen compatibility complaints in the other direction. I'm positive we would have on the WotC forums, anyway. :) So, point taken.

-O
 

If they released DS style themes the cries would have been:

"ACK! Power Creep!"
"EEK! Why wont my essentials subclass use these?"
"MWUHAHA! See the abandoned the essentials formats because it was a failure, i was right and all other opinions are invalid!"
and
"They took away the thing that made DS special! Its a harsh world and this is how the PCs could survive!!"
And all those points are invalid or worthless.
What we get now is not bad at all, infact, considering that you got them instead of NONE at all, im damned grateful to get some official support, yet im still hearing...
Yes, we should bow down to our supreme overlords for they have deigned to make us content! Bow down!
"ARRR!! These arent powerful enough for my taste!"
The article has presented an incredibly weak option. Saying it's weak is hardly a crime.
"MEEP! These are too powerful, too much creep!"
The article has presented an incredibly strong option. Additionally, it has changed the structure of themes so that instead of exchanging character options for theme options, you simply tack theme options on top of what you have.

So - a specific example of something overpowered, and simultaeneously a shift to a framework that guarantees there will be more instances of excessive power.

Again - not saying anything seems silly.
"Mulp! Why arent these like the DS ones! I demand sameness and refuse to use those instead!"
I don't think this argument is actually being made. The argument being made is that these are simultaeneously stripped down from the DS ones (in terms of less content and options) and also less balanced. We already sampled the grass on the other side, and it is much, much greener.
and
"RWARR!! Why are essentials classes allowed to associate with this material! HOW DARE THE SUPPORT OTHER CLASSES I DONT LIKE!!!"
The issue is that in the interests of providing more options to a version of the game designed to present less options, the version of the game which likes lots of options has had options stripped away from it. I think how confusing that sentence is has considerable implications for how much sense the decision makes.
Also, the nitpicking quote thing is really annoying, i was hoping to talk about the particulars of the actual themes themselves, not a forum for airing your Dislike of some edition or perceived notion of that it being an edition or what not, thats what the Wotc forums are for.

Personally I find quotes to be a lot less annoying than people hopping onto a thread and impugning the character, arguments and intellect of everyone in it, or simply just saying "this thread sucks because people are breaking up their arguments in the style of a debate". The themes themselves are covered on DDI. This site's policies prevent any real disclosure of the rules beyond that. What can be disclosed on this site was done and dusted on page 1. Please feel free to leave the thread as you found it.
 

Well, that does explain why you think the vampire is a viable striker and you must really not care about mechanics! Because the BMR pet is best as basically a flanking buddy for a bow ranger.

Here I'm with you.

No, you should read my point again. My point is that it should support all three tiers. Other books did, why not the two MVs?

From my own observation I doubt that one campaign in every twenty gets into Paragon tier; the overwhelming majority of them start at level 1 and either fizzle in low heroic or end in high heroic. This has nothing to do with the level of support provided. (And campaigns that start at Paragon or higher are IMO the most likely to fizzle of all).

Of the campaigns that make it into paragon, by attrition I doubt that one out of every five makes it into epic. It gets slower and more complex. And requires time investment to get there.

Which means I doubt that one campaign in every hundred makes it into epic tier. And this has nothing to do with the level of support provided. It has to do with level of complexity, time of play, and natural attrition.

And this also means that for the target audience of Monster Vault - new DMs - an overwhelming focus on the Heroic tier is absolutely the right thing. Most of those DMs are never going to go near Epic tier - and you could provide all the support you want for epic tier and this would not change. And of that tiny minority that does, most are going to put serious investment in and therefore be the sort that buy books like the Monster Manual 3 and the Dark Sun Creature Catalog.

You clearly want Epic to be as supported as Heroic tier. As far as the overwhelming majority of games are concerned, Epic might as well not exist - and epic support just pads out pages. This is doubly true for books such as MV that are intended to allow new DMs to hit the ground running. Every page spent on epic monsters is a page that will almost never be used. Epic support is massively disproportionate to the amount of play it gets. But you want more. You want WoTC to clutter up their books with what is, for their target audience, utterly useless information just so the very few epic tier players can have more than was already produced.

Equal support for epic tier to heroic tier would be like equal support for undead and living PCs in D&D. Hell, I don't think there's as much support for undead as for living PCs in the World of Darkness. And that despite WoD being driven by the vampire coolness factor.

But if mechanics are bad, then the class or concept cannot support what it is trying to do in game terms. This is the problem with the animal master who has the worlds most vulnerable minion and when it pops, he basically can't make any use of his powers for an entire adventure (which could be 3 levels or so. That's a LONG time). He's really not that much of an "animal master".
...
And CONCEPTS that fail entirely on their MECHANICS are utterly worthless.

Agreed on all counts. And especially about the Binder.

I don't agree that the Vampire's mechanics are worthless - merely that they are not suited to a high lethality campaign, although I believe they are well suited to other campaigns. They involve an interesting and fluffy serious tweak to the mechanics and I'm very glad 4e is trying that sort of thing. I'd also rather they underpitched the strength rather than overpitched. I'm also a fan of the Executioner, the Blackguard, the Nethermancer (I think Necrotic energy should have warped bodies with feats or features), the Gloom Pact Hexblade, the Death Priest, and more Warlock powers.

Then there was Dark Sun Campaign Setting: Really, do you NEED me to say any more here? Psionic Power was fantastic, really adding some great options and actually changed my opinions about psionics I loved it that much.

Mind explaining some of them please? I found PP good for monks (I love 4e monks). But I still find the other three classes meh. Ardents IMO should have been folded under the heading of Bard. I don't know who was asking for the Fightbrain.
 

My mind boggles at the blatant power disparity between Order Adept and Animal Master. What makes me sad is that Order Adept will get nerfed, but Animal Master will continue to be a giant, howling void of suck until the end of time, a trap for new players who think it'd be cool to have an animal friend... an animal friend who'll be blown to smithereens more and more often as they level up (burst and blasts are really common beyond Heroic, with each combatant usually having at least one at his or her disposal).

I mean, seriously, it's like WotC doesn't even think about playtesting. Or... you know, common sense. Or like they've actively given up attempting to make things balanced.

Open offer: hire me, WotC. I will so totally work for you. I can apparently catch wild discrepencies in power level on the first read-through that you guys couldn't catch all throughout the process. I'm a genius!

Seriously though... for all my griping and head-scratching over the Order Adept/Animal Master disparity... at least we have themes!
 
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I really like the alchemist and animal master. I like that the alchemist feature takes off some cost for creating alchemy items so hopefully they'll see more use. And who cares about mechanics--having an animal minion is just fun! I'd definitely take it for my beastmaster ranger just to have another animal to pal around with.
 

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