Theorizing about Divine feats

[Li Shenron]

I have been thinking of a divine feat that lets a cleric use a turn undead attempt to cast an extra spell. Something like this:

DIVINE BACKUP
req. Turn Undead, Charisma 13+, Spontaneous casting of Cure or Inflict spells
ben. As a standard action, spend a daily turn/rebuke undead attempt to cast a Cure or Inflict spell of the type you can cast spontaneously, which doesn't count against your daily spellcasting limit. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus.

As it is in this first draft, you would be able to cast the best Cure/Inflict spell you can according to your level, so the feat retain usefulness with cleric levels, up to Cure/Inflict critical wounds.

Do you think it would be unuseful? Overpowered? If you think that is't usable too many times per day, you can change it like this (but at higher levels it will be very less useful):

DIVINE BACKUP
req. Turn Undead, Spontaneous casting of Cure or Inflict spells
ben. As a standard action, spend a daily turn/rebuke undead attempt to cast a Cure or Inflict spell of the type you can cast spontaneously, which doesn't count against your daily spellcasting limit. You can do this only once per day.
special. You can take the feat more than once, every time you take it, you are able to use the ability one more time per day

 

[Felix]

Not a bad idea there, Li Shenron. Perhaps if you had to spend 1 T/R attempt for each d8 of curing you spontaneously cast, and could do it as many times as your CHA bonus in a day.....

hmmm.

How's this one:

DIVINE SPELL POWER
Prereqs: T/R undead ability, CHA 16+, WIS 16+, be able to cast 4th level divine spells
Benefit: By using one T/R undead attmept per spell level, the caster maximizes the spell as if he had used the metamagic feat of the same name.
Special: The spell remains the same level, though the time of casting is altered. For each T/R attempt exhaused in spellcasting (and thus for each spell level) the caster must spend one full round action channeling positive energy. The spell is cast at the end of the last full round action. Once casting has begun, the caster may take no actions without losing the spell and the T/R attempts. All concentration checks made while channeling recieve a +2 divine bonus due to the energy flowing through the caster.

I like the idea, but how balanced is this? Basically, you can maximize 9th level spells without having to raise the spell level, it just takes 9 rounds to do it. It would also run into a problem with spells like Call Lightning; casting time is already 10 min, and you need 1 round of concentration to call another bolt. Should it take 9 rounds of concentration each time to maximize Call Lightning's extra bolts?

 

[Destil]

Personally, I think Divine Feats are a great idea. It is an untapped resource with both role-playing and power-gaming potential. Many of the complaints I have read about them dislike the fact that it takes one standard action to activate the feat; this I think makes sense for RP reasons. It takes a st. action to channel the energy from your deity wether you want to turn undead, or empower your shield, or whatever.

My own solution to this is very simple. Divine feats generaly require the following to use:
Duration: Action
Minuets: Standard
Rounds: Move Equilevent
1 Round: Free

I came up with these a while ago, since I very much like divine feats, and why should good guys get all the fun.

DIVINE DEPLETION [DIVINE]
You can channel negative energy to cripple the living in melee combat.
Prerequisites: Ability to rebuke undead, Extra Turning, Cha 13+
Benefit: Spend one turn attempt undead attempt to inflict one negative level against any target you strike with a melee attack. The target must make a fortitude saving throw, DC 10 + your cha bonus + 1/2 your effective clerical level for rebuking. If they fail they gain one negative level for a number of hours equal to your charisma bonus. This negative level does not stack with negative levels from any other source, can not kill a creature (it has no effect on one hit die creatures) and never results in actual level loss. Undead creatures struck by your attacks instead gain 1d12 temporary hit points. Using this feat is a free action, its affects all your attacks until the your next action.
Special: This feat, like all divine feats, is supernatural rather than extraordinary.

(this is intended to be the sister feat to Divine Might)


DIVINE ELUDEANCE [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to improve your allies ability to avoid fireballs, lightning bolts and the like.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke undead, Cha 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: Spend one turn/rebuke attempt undead attempt to grant all allies within a 60-foot burst centered on yourself (yourself included) a +2 sacred bonus to reflex saves. Using this feat is a move equivelent action, its befits lasts for a number of rounds equal to your charisma bonus.
Special: This feat, like all divine feats, is supernatural rather than extraordinary.

DIVINE CONVICTION [DIVINE]
You can channel energy to improve your allies ability to resist charms, domination and the like.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke undead, Cha 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: Spend one turn/rebuke attempt undead attempt to grant all allies within a 60-foot burst centered on yourself (yourself included) a +2 sacred bonus to will saves. Using this feat is a move equivelent, it’s befits lasts for a number of rounds equal to your charisma bonus.
Special: This feat, like all divine feats, is supernatural rather than extraordinary.

 

[Destil]

Not a bad idea there, Li Shenron. Perhaps if you had to spend 1 T/R attempt for each d8 of curing you spontaneously cast, and could do it as many times as your CHA bonus in a day.....

hmmm.

How's this one:

DIVINE SPELL POWER
Prereqs: T/R undead ability, CHA 16+, WIS 16+, be able to cast 4th level divine spells
Benefit: By using one T/R undead attmept per spell level, the caster maximizes the spell as if he had used the metamagic feat of the same name.
Special: The spell remains the same level, though the time of casting is altered. For each T/R attempt exhaused in spellcasting (and thus for each spell level) the caster must spend one full round action channeling positive energy. The spell is cast at the end of the last full round action. Once casting has begun, the caster may take no actions without losing the spell and the T/R attempts. All concentration checks made while channeling recieve a +2 divine bonus due to the energy flowing through the caster.

I like the idea, but how balanced is this? Basically, you can maximize 9th level spells without having to raise the spell level, it just takes 9 rounds to do it. It would also run into a problem with spells like Call Lightning; casting time is already 10 min, and you need 1 round of concentration to call another bolt. Should it take 9 rounds of concentration each time to maximize Call Lightning's extra bolts?

The problem is that non-combat spells can be given benifits almost for free, and I think perhaps also the general cost is not high enugh. I think also you mean a sacred bonus to the check, or a circumstance bonus due to divine energy flow, since there is no 'divine' bonus IIRC.

Personaly, I think I would do this by allowing you to use 1 turn / rebuke attempt to count as a spell level for meta magic. Something like this:

DIVINE SPELL POWER
Prereqs: Cha 15+, Extra Turning, Any one Metamagic Feat
Benifit: You can channel positive or negitive energy to power meta-magic. You must expend one turn or rebuke attempt per level increase of the metamagic feat, and the casting time of the spell is increased as it would normaly be for a spontanious metamagic spell, but you need not prepair the spell ahead of time. You can not use this to cast a spell that would require a spell slot higher than the highest level you can currently cast.

You may also want to limit it to some degree, like requireing someone to take this for a certian meta-magic feat or feats.

EDIT: Okay, playing with the ideas a bit, I think this pair of feats would work better.

DIVINE SPELL POWER
Prereqs: Cha 15+, Extra Turning, Any one Metamagic Feat
Benifit: You can channel positive or negitive energy to power meta-magic. You must expend one turn or rebuke attempt per level increase of the metamagic feat, you need to prepair the spell ahead of time as normal, and you count any turning attempts used to prepair spells in this manner count against your daily limit. Also, if the spell you have so enhanced is still prepaired when you next prepair spells you do not recover the turn attempts / day expended. You can not use this to cast a spell that would require a spell slot higher than the highest level you can currently cast.

MIRACULOUS SPELL POWER
Prereqs: DIVINE SPELL POWER
You can apply meta magic feats to spells spontaniously through using divine energy.
Benifit: You can use the benifits of Divine Spell Power spontaniously, applying meta-magic feats to your spells as you cast them. This increases the casting time as normal for spontanious meta-magic spells. You can only use this up to once per day per point of charisma bonus.

 

[Destil]

I have been thinking of a divine feat that lets a cleric use a turn undead attempt to cast an extra spell. Something like this:

DIVINE BACKUP
req. Turn Undead, Charisma 13+, Spontaneous casting of Cure or Inflict spells
ben. As a standard action, spend a daily turn/rebuke undead attempt to cast a Cure or Inflict spell of the type you can cast spontaneously, which doesn't count against your daily spellcasting limit. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus.

As it is in this first draft, you would be able to cast the best Cure/Inflict spell you can according to your level, so the feat retain usefulness with cleric levels, up to Cure/Inflict critical wounds.

Do you think it would be unuseful? Overpowered? If you think that is't usable too many times per day, you can change it like this (but at higher levels it will be very less useful):

DIVINE BACKUP
req. Turn Undead, Spontaneous casting of Cure or Inflict spells
ben. As a standard action, spend a daily turn/rebuke undead attempt to cast a Cure or Inflict spell of the type you can cast spontaneously, which doesn't count against your daily spellcasting limit. You can do this only once per day.
special. You can take the feat more than once, every time you take it, you are able to use the ability one more time per day

I think the first is fine, the second one would be too limited to be generaly worthwhile.

 

[Nellisir]

Re: Problem

The problem with divine feats from my perspective is that they aren't in the SRD. Until they do, as far as I am concerned they do not exist. To use them is a violation of the d20 system license.

The foundation is laid out in the SRD, however. You have feats, you have turning undead (which has a specific number of uses per day), and you have the suggestion that divine energy/turning undead energy can be used for other purposes*. While I wouldn't copy the exact feats from DotF, the idea that turn undead uses could do something other than turn undead isn't restricted. You could call them holy/unholy feats, or celestial/fiendish feats, or deific feats, or faith feats, or channelling feats, or turning feats.

Cheers,
Nell.
Who really likes the idea and will work them into his d20 compliant website.

*The actual reference I'm thinking of (something about locking doors?) may actually not be in the SRD. Maybe it's just flavor text in the DMG or PHB. Still, the foundation is there. Turn undead doesn't have to -just- turn undead...
IMO

 

[Quasqueton]

Adding to the discussion...

I posted a few divine feats seperately without knowing about this thread.

Go here to see them:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=38169

But, to join this conversation. . .

Since divine feats work off the turning/rebuking mechanics, they probably should follow the same rules:

Standard action to activate (but no action to "maintain").
Burst-like effect out to 60'.
Uses positive or negative energy.
Duration of one minute (10 rounds).
Based on charisma.

I'd have no problem if one or maybe two of these mechanics were altered for the feat, but a designer shouldn't just make up something totally unrelated and just call it a divine feat. If you stray too far from the T/R mechanic, you're not creating a divine feat -- you're creating a spell.

Plus, these feats shouldn't (exactly) reproduce a spell effect.

And, since turning is useful only on undead, a divine feat that is usable on other than just undead should have a more limited power.

I'm really disappointed in the divine feats of DotF. Most don't really have any connection to T/R beyond as a prerequisite. And why should extra turning be a prerequisite for so many? You must increase your potential usages before you can get the use for it?

Quasqueton

 

[Dr. NRG]

Slightly OT

I too, was disappointed with the feats in the DoTF at first. That was before I played a 3E cleric to reasonably high levels and realized that even without turning (let alone other uses for turning slots), clerics are plenty flexible and powerful.

Yes, their turning ability is limited, but man oh man, not only do they get to use their extremely extensive spell list freely, they get to substitute out anything they don't use (apart from domain spells) for curing or inflicting. I really prefer to spend creative energy helping out classes that are in need of being balanced upwards rather than helping out the already-buff clerics.

NRG

 

[Felix]

Destil: Thanks for the critiques. I'll be sure to give my DM an earful of this stuff next session!

Nellisir: You're thinking about the description of a spell along the lines of Forbiddance. It isn't that spell in particular, but channeling positive or negative energy can be a requirement for abjuration spells.

Quasqueton: perhaps the cleric can focus this divine energy so that it doesn't come out in a burst? Sure, it would be a departue from the rules of T/R, but I don't think in spirit. Channeling energy is channeling energy; does it have to expand in a burst?

Dr. NRG: A valid gripe Doc; that's why I'm going for low power, high coolness factor feats.

 

[Nellisir]

Nellisir: You're thinking about the description of a spell along the lines of Forbiddance. It isn't that spell in particular, but channeling positive or negative energy can be a requirement for abjuration spells.

I'm not sure what this is in reply to. I was neither thinking of an existing spell, nor attempting to create one.

Influencing undead uses either positive or negative energy (PHB pg 139, under TURN AND REBUKE UNDEAD) "Good clerics...can channel positive energy, which drives off (turns) or destroys undead. Evil clerics...can channel negative energy, which awes (rebukes), controls (commands), or bolsters undead."

And the quote I was thinking of (not correctly) is on the next page, under Other Uses For Energy "Positive or negative energy may uses other than affecting undead. For example, a holy site may be guarded by a magic door that opens for any good cleric who can make a turning check high enough to affect a 3-HD undead and that shatters for an evil cleric who can make a similar check."

Cheers,
Nell.