There can be only two...

[Desdichado]

Just watched Return of the Jedi last night, and Empire a few days before that, and was struck by a thought. My tastes about what I liked and didn't like in that movie have completely changed with the release of the prequels. Used to be that I really liked the pathos and then upset underdog victory of Han and the ewoks on Endor, really liked the space battle, and was bored to tears during the Emperor/Luke thingy. Now, I smack myself on the forehead when I hear that "an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops" are taken out by the Care Bears, and the subtlety of the Emperor and Luke is really interesting.

Here's what I've really been thinking about. What were Vader and the Emperor going on about with "turning" Luke when they both knew darn well that there could only be a master and an apprentice; and they both knew that the other knew that as well? I initially thought that maybe Lucas hadn't concieved that notion yet, but now I'm not so sure. After all, Vader, when trying to tempt Luke at the end of Empire clearly talks about together throwing down the emperor and ruling as father and son, and the Emperor clearly tells Luke to strike down his father and take his place at his (the emperor's) side.

 

[Staffan]

Or, maybe the Emperor had decided by then that now that the Jedi were gone it wouldn't hurt to have a few more Sith around.

 

[Hand of Evil]

But how many masters can you have? My take on it was at some point you become a master and then are own your own, you then can take someone to learn the darkside, performing all the action while you hide in the dark and tell them what to do.

 

[Desdichado]

No, the concept, as described by Lucas in the movies (and detailed a little bit more in the Phantom Menace novelization) is that there are only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice. When there were multiple Sith Lord Masters, there was too much infighting, and they essentially exterminated themselves.

I dunno, I find that idea kinda hoaky -- my homebrew Star Wars "after Jedi game will have more Sith Lords than that, as a rival "anti-Jedi" organization, but I'm accepting what I'm given in terms of history, at least.

But really, I'm just talking about how it made the movies much more interesting, intentionally or not. There's a big game going on between Vader and the Emperor in terms of what's going to happen with Luke. Is the Emperor going to go down to be replaced by the Skywalker dynasty, or is Vader going to be replaced by his son as the protege?

 

[shadowlight]

..."an entire legion of [the emperor's] best troops" are taken out by the Care Bears, ...

hmmm.... so if we're RPGing to we get to play the Care Bears?

Here's what I think: The emperor was so arrogant that he assumed that neither Vader nor Luke could take him, so he'd just end up with the strongest of the two as an underling ("Take you Father's place at my side"). Vader went along with the plan because:
A) deep down he didn't want to kill his son and
B) he believed that together they could kill the emperor...

I think that it's showing how the Sith empire could be an empire at the same time that it killed itself from the inside (people working together even though they were trying to kill each other).

 

[Desdichado]

If Vader wanted the Emperor dead, who could have simply not blocked Luke's lightsaber strike. I think he wanted Luke turned first. By taking him to the Emperor, Vader's only option was to lose out, it seemed, if he really understood that in order for Luke to be turned he'd have to kill Vader himself.

 

[Umbran]

No, the concept, as described by Lucas in the movies (and detailed a little bit more in the Phantom Menace novelization) is that there are only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice.

Traditionally, yes. But that tradition was based upon what, for the Emperor and Vader, was ancient history. That tradition was also based upon the idea of surviving in the face of the Jedi, who had been eradicated.

Times change, traditions change. I think it adds a level of complexity - maybe they're each vying to become Luke's new master, and maybe they're trying to make a triad.

And remember that they can be trying for both at the same time - hedging their bets, playing power games, testing the waters. When hatred and power are your only real goals, you don't burn your bridges

 

[Daiymo]

Traditionally, yes. But that tradition was based upon what, for the Emperor and Vader, was ancient history. That tradition was also based upon the idea of surviving in the face of the Jedi, who had been eradicated.

Times change, traditions change. I think it adds a level of complexity - maybe they're each vying to become Luke's new master, and maybe they're trying to make a triad.

And remember that they can be trying for both at the same time - hedging their bets, playing power games, testing the waters. When hatred and power are your only real goals, you don't burn your bridges

I think there could be a few things going on. The tradition certainly could be changing, and Luke would be another Sith. But the tradition has a point- the more Sith there are the more potential rivals there are to turn on you. so I dont think the Emperor was changing the tradition- he was too subtle for that.

Myself I think that Vader wasnt as knowledgable in Sith lore as the Emperor. And based on how Anakin acts in Episode II in his admiration of Palpatine, he may have thought that in corrupting Luke he was adding his son to the "business". And this is why he blocks Lukes blow, Luke is to attack and by giving in to his anger make him easier to turn. In this regard despite his power Vader was ignorant of the fact he could be replaced by his son. He thought of himself imho as the Emperor's friend and servant.

After all the Emperor is a pretty crafty villain. Most likely he was setting up Vader to be killed by Luke. If Vader won, he still got the stronger apprentice and the theat of LUke was gone.

 

[Welverin]

The way I see it

Both Palpatine and Vader wanted Luke as their apprentice, or dead.

In Paly's case if Luke ends up on his side it means Vader is dead. If Luke joined Vader then the two of them would turn on Palpy.

 

[LuYangShih]

If I recall correctly, Vader let Luke win, knowing he would be destroyed by doing so. The redeeming quality of Vader was his love for his son, which is of course why he turned on the Emperor once Luke rejected the Dark Side.