D&D (2024) There needs to be a 4th spell list.

I do not believe the game is nearly that balanced on a knife edge that you seem to be suggesting here. To think that any time a player chooses not to use a certain ability means that they are now playing "below their fighting weight" (to use an inaccurate analogy) and thus should be compensated somehow to get themselves back up in balance is not anything WotC has thought of or worry about.
Oh, I don't think 5e is anywhere close to balanced. But inefficient characters simply aren't as fun at the table, for me. Why would I want to stare at some unneeded trivia on my character sheet that means nothing to my character, simply because it came with my class?


Fighters get Heavy Armor proficiency-- if they don't use it, should they be able to replace it with another feature they do (and believe me, I've seen threads where some people have argued they should, and I disagree wholeheartedly)?
Yes, absolutely. The one time I had a character play a "Dex fighter", I compensated them for the unused heavy armor proficiency. (I gave them Medium Armor Mastery instead.)

Spellcasters have dozens of spells they don't use. Should they be able to strike those spells from their spells list and replace them with other features that they will?
Well, I much prefer specialized casters with just a few spells over the broad generalization of standard 5e casters, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. :)

Weapon-users have proficiency in hosts of weapons they will never pick up. Should they be able to replace all of those with another feature they will?

Fair point. If a player brought it to my attention that they really wanted to trade out their weapon proficiencies to specialize, I would compensate them. Most martial types want the option to be able to use found magic weapons, though, since my games have fairly frequent and randomized items.

Where does this nitpicking end? And why is it WotC's job to make it easier for them?
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At some point the game would become exactly as you seem to be playing and working yours (congrats, by the way, that's exactly the way I think people should play their game, making it their own!) Where every single little feature or ability is bought piecemeal to create the character you want. Those kinds of game already exist and seem to do well... and if someone (such as yourself) decides to hammer and work D&D into a game that also works like those other games (like Gurps or Hero System)... more power to you and I'm glad it works for you! But I do not think any of us could suggest that this is the design D&D should go or even would go.
I like crunchy character building games plenty, but I've been arguing for a while now that D&D would work better for its default playstyle if the game had limited options at the player end and encouraged fiction-based, diegetic character growth.

Basically, make standard D&D more like a Troika! or Electric Bastionland, with dozens of low-weight starting options and then unfettered abilities, gained during play, from there. No real character building at all, pick an option and play.
 

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My opinion is that this is a flaw of your table's dynamics and not a flaw of the game design. If your table gets mad at you because you have the functionality to heal but choose not to based on character design and choice... then that's their problem and they have no right to insinuate it is yours.
If on the other hand your entire group gets mad at your character because that character is not a team player and does not use the skills they have that have no long term cost to support their team in matters of like or death for that team then this is an entirely fair and reasonable response to a character being a selfish asshat. And if you get upset at everyone else calling your character a selfish asshat who refuses to support the rest of your team in life and death situations when they are able to do so because they are a selfish asshat who refuses to support their team in life and death situations when they are able to do so ... then that's on you for playing a selfish asshat.

Meanwhile the consequence of playing an asshat and table tension normally bleeds out into real world feelings. Not taking that into account is just foolish.
Noe granted... you're still the one who has to deal with those asshats, so I can understand why you'd prefer the game just not put you in that situation... but "the other players are being asshats when I don't use a class feature I have" I personally suspect is not the strongest of rationales to make in the survey when the time comes. But hey, what do I know? Maybe it is?
You aren't the one who has to deal with asshats if you refuse, in character, to use abilities you have in character. You are the one playing an asshat.

And "This game encourages people to play as an asshat" is one of the strongest possible rationales to put in the survey.
 

If on the other hand your entire group gets mad at your character because that character is not a team player and does not use the skills they have that have no long term cost to support their team in matters of like or death for that team then this is an entirely fair and reasonable response to a character being a selfish asshat.
No it's not (in my opinion).

If you told the group before the game began "The way the 2024 Bard is designed, I have been given Songs of Restoration as part of the class. But I do not intend to play a healer and will not heal with this character... so let's all just pretend like WotC never wrote this in the book. In fact, if necessary I'll take a Sharpie to my Player's Handbook right now"... then there is absolutely no reason why the group should get mad 20 weeks in when the party is in the midst of a giant big battle and you aren't healing anyone. If you are playing a College of Swords swashbuckler type and never heal people... none of your group should think "Oh, well that was fine the first 19 weeks when it didn't matter, but now we really need it, so you should change your character" and get upset at you if you do not. And if they DO get mad at you for not doing what you told them you wouldn't be doing... then they are asshats.

Should a group get mad at a Cleric player because they choose to play a Lawful Good holy man and thus choose never prepare any necromancy spells like Speak With Dead? Well, if they do get mad because they think "You know... talking with this corpse would be really handy right now if Bob The Cleric would just get over that whole 'morals' thing!", then I have no issue with saying they're being schmucks. And if it was me, I'd tell them to stuff it.

If you or anyone is unwilling or unable to have that conversation with your group for whatever reason... then I feel for you. That probably must suck. But your particular case of being stuck in an uncomfortable situation with a group that doesn't respect character choices is not enough of a reason for WotC to change up their design decisions on a whim. Now if you want to let them know that you think it could be an issue when you fill out your survey... that's exactly what you should do and I'd never say otherwise. But I also won't pretend like ever single idea that gets thrown out here on the messageboards is a fantastic one and that WotC should incorporate all of them. Because most of them I believe are not.
 

Yes, and no. A "known spell" caster could keep their spells fixed except at level up if they want.

EXCEPT... that 5e :known spell casters: can wind up with only one 1st level spells if they REALLY wanted to and move all those spells to higher levels. A 5e Bard could have up to 7 known 9th level spells. (3 new known spells at level 17-20, plus swapping out 1 lower level spell at the four levels)

Yes, that's as dumb as only knowing one 1st but the point remains that a 5e known caster has a different KIND of flexibility than these prepared spell casters.

I like the idea of the Bard/sorceror having the "right" mix of spells AND levels for their play style and campaign. Maybe they like a lot of low level spells that upcast, maybe they focus on that useful 3rd-5th zone where you have several spell slots. Or you have the high level caster that is prone to having relevant 7th & 8th level spells without having to use their 9th on Wish to cast the spell they wish they had. (Pun intended)

this loses that feature and is "wizard-priest with a guitar".

Plus, I don't want to play a healer. Don't clutter my finite list of available spells with this. Some people do and thats fine but now all bards MUST be healers. If you could heal, but refuse, you are distinctly not a team player. My 5e bard has a smidgen of healing (1st level only) and a few scrolls. Are you hurt enough to blow a scroll? No? Then take a nap and I will play you a lullaby.
I love playing healer, but not with bard and even if I do -though I will- I'd rather have cure wounds than healing word.
 

I'd rather it was bard, warlocks, and maybe a psion later on (though still torn on if that should be a sorcerer subclass).

Artificer has always had a strong focus on 'arcane' magic. It's never been focused on the occult mind altering stuff.
Only if you are using the definition of occult to be "mind altering". The more traditional use of the word often includes subjects like alchemy and older pre-modern medical practices, stuff very much on theme to the artificer.

I am also not 100% set on that name anyway given the obvious pf2e comparison it invites that I'm pretty sure Wotc will wish to avoid. The larger point is the list should be focused on buffs/debuffs, healing, and dabble in charms and utility, tied around the theme of casting magic using tools (instruments in bards case) / creations / performance.
 

If you told the group before the game began "The way the 2024 Bard is designed, I have been given Songs of Restoration as part of the class. But I do not intend to play a healer and will not heal with this character... so let's all just pretend like WotC never wrote this in the book. In fact, if necessary I'll take a Sharpie to my Player's Handbook right now"
Then you are having exactly the same conversation as "I want to play a custom class because I don't like the current official version". And you know why you do that? Because the official version is not fit for the rules you want.

So yes you can make a custom class. And have that conversation. But this is entirely the domain of house rules. At this point we're running right into the Oberoni Fallacy.
 

Only if you are using the definition of occult to be "mind altering". The more traditional use of the word often includes subjects like alchemy and older pre-modern medical practices, stuff very much on theme to the artificer.

I am also not 100% set on that name anyway given the obvious pf2e comparison it invites that I'm pretty sure Wotc will wish to avoid. The larger point is the list should be focused on buffs/debuffs, healing, and dabble in charms and utility, tied around the theme of casting magic using tools (instruments in bards case) / creations / performance.
Yeah a different name to occult would be better.
 

Then you are having exactly the same conversation as "I want to play a custom class because I don't like the current official version". And you know why you do that? Because the official version is not fit for the rules you want.

So yes you can make a custom class. And have that conversation. But this is entirely the domain of house rules. At this point we're running right into the Oberoni Fallacy.
If (general) your table won't allow house rules... again, that's a table issue and not a design issue.

If (general) you are stuck playing at a table that refuses to use any house rules because they think RAW is the ONLY way to play (which of course is complete baloney because you get no prizes for playing RAW-- there's no bonus points for refusing to make the game your own and in fact are doing so to your own table's detriment)... then (general) you should find a different table. One that can actually compromise and work hard to make all the players at it happy.

But again, it's not WotC JOB to design the game so that you can just take it easy and not actually put in any work finding a table and fellow players whose style of play matches yours. Because basically (general) you're saying "I want the game to be designed so that everyone has to play MY way and they all have to come to me... rather than me having to find other people and go to them." And that's the kind of argument I would suspect would not hold much water back in Renton, WA.

But you know, who knows? Maybe I'm wrong? The surveys take down so much information that gets basically translated into strict percentages of "I like it" or "I don't like it" that just saying you don't like a rule when you fill the survey out with no further rationale will be enough? Maybe you'll get lucky?
 

If (general) your table won't allow house rules... again, that's a table issue and not a design issue.
If on the other hand you need house rules to fix something that is entirely a design issue.

You are asking for house rules (a design issue) and then saying that not having them is a design issue.
If (general) you are stuck playing at a table that refuses to use any house rules because they think RAW is the ONLY way to play (which of course is complete baloney because you get no prizes for playing RAW-- there's no bonus points for refusing to make the game your own and in fact are doing so to your own table's detriment)... then (general) you should find a different table. One that can actually compromise and work hard to make all the players at it happy.
Fixing broken game design is something tables do. It does not
But again, it's not WotC JOB to design the game so that you can just take it easy and not actually put in any work finding a table and fellow players whose style of play matches yours.
Then just what exactly do you think WotC's job is?
Because basically (general) you're saying "I want the game to be designed so that everyone has to play MY way and they all have to come to me...
And right back atcha. What you are advocating is that all casters should work exactly the same way rather than accommodate a variety of play styles by working in different ways. And then because you have homogenised the game people who previously had some classes that worked with the way they want to play and others that didn't now get precisely zero classes that in this respect play they want to.

And you think that because you personally have had the differentiation scrubbed out in order to suit you when different people want different things (or even want different things at different times) that the problem is something other than that now everyone has to play YOUR way? The key benefit of a class system is that different classes can be made to play different ways.

If we're moving the ranger out of spells known then what are we moving into that group? The paladin? The artificer? Or are we having zero half caster classes that don't play the way you, @DEFCON 1 personally want no matter that not everyone wants to play that way? And do you also want the sorcerer gutted and given over to your personal tastes?
 

If we're moving the ranger out of spells known then what are we moving into that group? The paladin? The artificer? Or are we having zero half caster classes that don't play the way you, @DEFCON 1 personally want no matter that not everyone wants to play that way? And do you also want the sorcerer gutted and given over to your personal tastes?
I actually don't care if any classes are Known Spells casters. Because once the game is released I'm going to make the rules my own. WotC can do whatever they want and I'll jerry-rig it to suit my needs. That's the entire point. It's why I don't get bent out of shape when these new rules ideas come in, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

Now like I said... if you're saying your piece because you are hoping to influence enough people to agree with you and thus make all your desires known on the surveys so that WotC changes things back... then more power to you. You don't like the rule. That's cool. You want to see it changed. Awesome. You're going to tell WotC on their survey that you don't like the rule and you want to see it changed. Fair enough. That's what the survey is there for.

The question is though... is your current argument for making Rangers go back to having Known Spells actually going to convince enough people to respond to the survey in the same way? Cause you're going to need to reduce the number of people who either like the change or don't find it in any way a hardship down to probably less than 75% for WotC to consider rolling things back. And at least in my case... your reasons have not made me think it's a bad idea or even consider scoring the survey poorly. You haven't made a convincing case in my opinion. And why do I argue with people who make what I consider poor arguments? Because we're on a message board and it's fun to talk about these things.

But so be it. I'm also just one dude amongst the thousands of people who are going to respond. So if you think your arguments have been sufficient, then best of luck when the survey comes around! Maybe you've done a good enough job after all. We'll just have to wait and see.
 

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