There needs to be more dwarf monks

[Glade Riven]

Just looking around at things, the dwarf makes the closest thing I've seen to a perfect race for the Monk class. So I did a build for fun:

Ulfur Thorvalder
Dwarf Monk(Of the Four Winds)
Rolls: 14 16 13 12 16 13
STR: 13 (+1) DEX: 16 (+3) CON: 16 (+3) INT: 13 (+1) WIS: 18 (+4) CHA: 10 (+0)

Racial Traits:
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff.
Medium: Dwarves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Slow and Steady: Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Craftsman: Dwarves are known for their superior craftsmanship when it comes to metal and stone works. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks that create objects from metal or stone. This racial trait replaces the greed racial trait.
Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
Magic Resistant: Some of the older dwarven clans are particularly resistant to magic. Dwarves with this racial trait gain spell resistance equal to 5 + their character level. This resistance can be lowered for 1 round as a standard action. Dwarves with this racial trait take a –2 penalty on all concentration checks made in relation to arcane spells. This racial trait replaces the hardy racial trait.
Stability: Dwarves receive a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Stonecunning: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks to potentially notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or f loors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, whether or not they are actively looking.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Dwarves begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Dwarves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.

1st level Monk abilities: AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Elemental Fist (APG, replaces Stunning Fist), Bonus Feat (Dodge)

1st level feat: Weapon Finesse

I did decide to go with the Monk of the Four Winds alternative build from the AGP, and a few alternative racial traits.


The bonus to Con and Wis makes a Dwarf monk more survivable. Slow and Steady counters any encumbrance issues for loads, so speed boosts later in the Monk's class are unaffected by how much a dwarf carries. Adding Spell Resistance to an already hard-to-hit monk through alternative racial traits makes him very survivable.

Thoughts?

 

[wolff96]

The bonus to Con and Wis makes a Dwarf monk more survivable. Slow and Steady counters any encumbrance issues for loads, so speed boosts later in the Monk's class are unaffected by how much a dwarf carries. Adding Spell Resistance to an already hard-to-hit monk through alternative racial traits makes him very survivable.

I think Dwarves make good monks. Although, for flavor, I prefer the Monk of the Sacred Mountain replacement features.

I have to say, though, that I completely disagree with you on how to build a monk. I've never understood the "Defensive Monk" mentality, though it's certainly a perfectly viable alternative. (This is personal opinion, I'm not trying to tell you you're "Wrong" or anything.. It can be hard to convey tone in text.)

You have great defenses and pretty much zero offense... that's rough. I tend to go the other way completely, building high-strength monks that *punish* people. To make up for my lower defense, I tend to dump a decent amount of cash into Wands of Mage Armor for the party caster to use on me.

My last PF monk was a 20 Strength Half-Orc who hit like a truck and was tough enough to absorb the punishment. Nothing like using Half-Orc Ferocity to unleash ONE LAST full attack and killing a BBEG. (And the party even managed to heal me before I bled out!)

 

[Glade Riven]

Weapon Finesse is so I can apply Dex to unarmed attack rolls instead of Str. If it weren't for the ki powers later on, I probably would have put my 2nd 16 into something other than Wis. Combined with Elemental Fist, that gives me an offensive boost early on, before anybody can afford a magical weapon. Magical items that boost Dex also improve my ability to hit.

The Monk class is built around a focus of being unable to be hit. The way it is designed, by lumping ki abilities and a defensive bonus to Wis a player is encouraged to play that aspect up. Adding the racial spell resistance gives the dwarf monk another edge early on in the game. Sure, the fighter (and to a slightly lesser extent, barbarian and paladin) will chew through bad guys a lot quicker, but a defensive monk has a good chance of walking around the caster's meat sheilds with nary a scratch so he can cold-clock him with a few Flurry of Blows.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dwarf is definitely the best core monk race, and I was happy to choose one for my Zen Archer Monk. Monk makes the lower speed matter less, this wis bonus is nice, the save bonuses (and there's a trait for another +1 vs. spells!) plus monk's all good saves and eventual SR synergize well... Unfortunately the proficiencies and ability to be encumbered and still move full speed (most monk abilities are tied to light encumbrace specifically, not if it's actually encumbering you) do little for you.

I think it's a mistake to go for Weapon Finesse, though. Monks have a to hit, damage, AND maneuver problem. Strength is important for all of those things, and wasting a feat just to make the to hit suck less (and it will still suck, even without str it's a MAD class, and even if it only required dex and wis, the higher focus on dex will still only result in a +1 or +2 bonus higher usually) will not be enough. Better to just have a middling dex and a moderately high str and save the feat. Or not play a monk at all and play something not visciously underpowered instead...

 

[Kaiyanwang]

I prefer offensive monk, but for a defensive one, try a defensive/control monk.

Buff Dex and Wis mainly, and focus on mobility and Combat Patrol. Take Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to reduce MAD.

Then use Stuns, Touch of Serenity, Improved Trip.. stuff to inflict conditions.

 

[Glade Riven]

Great, class bashing...

Look, the point is that the Monk can go a few rounds longer because he's hard to hit. Kaiyanwang is right about Weapon Finesse and Agile Maeuvers, and from then on concentraiting on fighter feats (assuming he qualifies).

Right now, Ulfar has +8 to AC with no armor. A fighter, at first level with the right stats (and maybe spending a feat), can't get above that due to wealth restrictions. At later levels, yes, the fighter can spend money to get the same protection, but suffers penalties to a number of skills. Enchanted clothing + a ki ability that can boost another +4 for sticky situations, Mobility and Spring attack as bonus feats, all good saves, and (in this case) spell resistance of 5 + class level as a racial ability stacks the deck in survivability. Lvl 3 brings the CMB up (= to level instead of BAB), so Agile Maneuvers taken at level 3 boosts it up.

Between bonus feats and ki abilities, a monk can quickly move about the battlefield in ways other classes have to rely on casters with spells to do.

Will he do less damage than the fighter? Per attack, yes. But he has a better chance of surviving a wider variety of situations than a fighter.

I keep hearing how the monk sucks. From what I've seen in play, though, they are devastating. Monks survive things other people don't and have superior battle field movement, and that survivability and movement is what plays into their favor.

 

[Wiseblood]

I have a fighter in a party with a monk the monk edges me out in AC and some skills. He does respecable damage. He also does well against large groups of foes. He really can't touch me in damage dealing with his 3/4 BAB but we make a great team.

Monks are like playing a game on a harder difficulty with extra continues.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Being "defensive" and having huge "survivability" is meaningless if you don't really contribute to killing the monsters.

A good offense will always be the best defense in a 3.x game.

 

[Glade Riven]

That makes me wonder what kind of game you're playing...

I can think of a bunch of scenarios where a defensive monk can come in handy - when the figher is locked down, he has a chance to move through the fray to hit the enemy wizard; He can tag-team with the rogue, fighter, etc. for flanking bonuses; The monk can cover the party's retreat and then catch up; When the rest of the party is down, the Monk can keep going and still pull victory from the jaws of defeat; if the group is captured as part of the plot, the monk is never unarmed and is better than a naked fighter; when the fighter gets enthralled and someone has to step up and KO him before he murders the entire party; etc.

 

[wolff96]

The Monk class is built around a focus of being unable to be hit. The way it is designed, by lumping ki abilities and a defensive bonus to Wis a player is encouraged to play that aspect up.

And that's *one way* to play a monk. You seem to take it as a core concept that monks must be built around survivability. It's not the case. There are other ways to build a monk that will contribute as much (or in some cases, more) to a party.

With the same ability set, you could make an offensive monk that hits significantly harder. His defenses will be lower. But -- again, IMO -- the best defense is a good offense. No one can cause damage if they're dead.

And a high strength monk with a flurry of blows will kill things nearly as fast as a fighter, though with a slightly lower chance to hit.

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The only PF monk I've played was a high-strength Half-Orc with the Improved Grapple bonus feat. +7 Grapple at 1st level isn't bad. Neither is a Flurry of Blows at +4/+4 for 1d6+5 per hit.

My AC was only 15 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis), compared to your dwarf's 17 (+3 Dex, +4 Wis), but it's nothing to scoff at. Especially because the party Sorcerer would usually toss me a Mage Armor.

I couldn't do the Elemental Fist thing once a day for an extra d6, but my average damage was higher per strike than the Elemental Fist power of your dwarf 1/day. (That goes up with higher levels, of course, as you get more uses of EF). Then again, my second level feat was Power Attack anyway, so my damage continued to hop up pretty well.

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No one in this thread is bashing the monk or telling you you're wrong for wanting to play a survivor monk. But there *are* other ways to play a monk.

Not to mention that a more offensively-focused monk can still handle every example you listed. Although he'll probably wrestle the fighter down, rather than KO him.