D&D (2024) They butchered the warlock in the new packet

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

what if they got the spell progression from a full caster but spell slot volume of a half caster until 5th level spells? would it make to many dead levels? would it be too powerfull with all the invocations and pact cantrips?

that is a thing we would have to play but my gut says that might work

 

[FitzTheRuke]

So, I rebuilt my player's L4 Human Celestial Warlock using the new rules. (My players are happy to playtest, but they don't want to spend time downloading packets, etc, so I've been making their characters for them).

I'm... mixed. At L4, he loses his 2/SR L2 slots for 3/LR L1 slots.That's not a lot more slots for the dip in power, and it's a lot LESS slots if I give him even a SINGLE short rest in a day. He gets a few more cantrips and a few more spells for versatility and options. He gets to make more choices on his turn, essentially. I think the player will like that part.

I think the biggest complaint that I would have as a Warlock would be the serious downgrade is slot-level. I mean, they have to wait to Level 9 to get L3 slots, when they used to get them at Level 5. That's going to hurt.

It's not unplayable by any stretch, but I can see why Warlock players won't like it. (I knew there was going to be a riot as soon as I read it, but I still hold out to see it in play before judging it for myself, it's just how I am, for good or bad.)

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I'm... mixed. At L4, he loses his 2/SR L2 slots for 3/LR L1 slots.That's not a lot more slots for the dip in power, and it's a lot LESS slots if I give him even a SINGLE short rest in a day. He gets a few more cantrips and a few more spells for versatility and options. He gets to make more choices on his turn, essentially. I think the player will like that part.

Ii have three warlocks thaat I have low level character sheets for, I think I want to try this and see what they look like... I have to ask how you handled the celestial pact since I have 1 fiend, 1 fey, and 1 hexblade

 

[Remathilis]

this is the first thing I have seen from you I can get behind... while it is far from my first choice I think 1 free spell slot of fulll caster (upto 5th) would work but I would want to keep the 1/day pact spell

thank you for really listening and understanding our point of view.

It still a playtest. I'm willing to find some compromise. My only thing I don't want is the return of pact magic as it was. I want Warlocks to have more spells slots and those not to be tied to Union Breaks. However, if Channel Divinity/Nature can scale with class level and return a use on short rest, I don't see how a floating spell slot would be impossible. If its too OP, maybe tie it to Tomelocks. IDK. I'm not a designer. But I will give feedback on giving them a PM like spell slot.

 

[Clint_L]

Trying to be cautious in my response. I have not got a lot of experience playing warlocks, though obviously had lots of players using them. So I want to defer to the hardcore and experienced players; their opinions matter more than mine.

My initial reaction is that most of the changes look like improvements, particularly for invocations. Obviously, the huge change is by standardizing them into another half-caster class. I don't like that - I think it homogenizes the class, and instead of getting limited but powerful spells in a timely manner, their spells will always be weak for the party level, like a paladin or ranger. Which I think leaves them even more reliant on just eldritch blasting all day long.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

this is the first thing I have seen from you I can get behind... while it is far from my first choice I think 1 free spell slot of fulll caster (upto 5th) would work but I would want to keep the 1/day pact spell

thank you for really listening and understanding our point of view.

I think not tying mystic arcanum to invocations and actually give it to every warlock seems a good idea.
So one full caster slot per short rest that auto upgrades up to fifth level and then one higher level spell per day would be cool. A bit more complicated, but something of a compromise between pact magic and spellcasting.

 

[Charlaquin]

limited uses per day, yeah, mechanically the same.

If you want to distinguish them fine, I’d still keep everything that recharges on a per day cycle.

We had Wizard spells and Fighter action surges in 5e, I see no reason to not add the Warlock spells to that. Getting rid of the few outliers is a bonus.

No. Keeping everything on the same recharge rate is boring. Again, people complained 4e was same-y, how would this not be significantly more so?

it’s easier to rest for 8 hours once you cleaned up the cave than while doing so

Again, If you’ve cleaned up the cave, the length of rest is irrelevant because you can just go back to town and recover during downtime. Unless town is too far away and you have to trek through monster-filled wilderness to get there, in which case you’re very much still in a dangerous location and resting for one hour is still going to be easier to do safely than resting for eight.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

If you’ve cleaned up the cave, the length of rest is irrelevant because you can just go back to town and recover during downtime.

Yeah the difference between "I regain everything every adventure no matter what" and "I recover my level or double my level hp with bed rest per day" means nothing if you can take a month in town.

unless somehow after 30days of your level you are not healed... in that case please tell me how you averaged 31 or mor hp per level.

 

[Charlaquin]

The problem is that every class benefits from a long rest. Everything resets on them. HP, spells, class features, etc. However, short rests were specific to only certain classes (and races). Fighter, monk, and warlock all had important parts of their kit requiring short rests. Cleric, druid, and bard (after 5th level) got use out of them, but the ability was more situational and they had regular spellcasting to fall back on. Wizards, sorcerers and barbarians got almost no benefit, and the rogue had no resources to build so they only ever rest to heal.

Sure, so more classes should have more things that recover on a short rest.

Further, in my experience, I find groups are more likely to take short rests when they are banged up. If a group blows through some easy encounters with minimal damage, they feel compelled to keep going, even if they have used up short rest resources. So if you're the warlock, cast hex in the beginning of the day, and then you and your party get into a couple easy combats or encounters with good HP, they are less likely to wait an hour for you to get your spell back...

If all you had was a couple of easy fights, why did you even spend any spell slots? Again, warlock spell slots are their big showstoppers. You don’t need a showstopper when the fight is easy.

Ultimately, this was something that should have been seen coming. The changes to Tasha subclasses and dragonborn from per short rest to proficiency/day.

We did see it coming, and we said then that we would be unhappy if they tried to change the warlock to long rest based. Well, now it has happened, and we are unhappy, just like we said would happen.

 

[kigmatzomat]

what if they got the spell progression from a full caster but spell slot volume of a half caster until 5th level spells? would it make to many dead levels? would it be too powerfull with all the invocations and pact cantrips?

If I understand this "half-depth" caster(instead of half-progression) at 9th they would have 1x fifth level spell and 2 slots each for 1st-4th. Compare to a 2014 warlock at 9th, who gets two 5th pact spells per short rest. Both have beefy cantrips to fall back on and an assortment of invocations that customize their character, which may include at-will spells.

That would probably address the issues the warlock players in my group had. In a single fight, the 2014 hits harder but the HD warlock can do more. And in any kind of scenario where a 1-hr break isn't rational, the HD warlock has options beyond EB.

Hexblade has 2 melee attacks, no MAD, decent armor, some level appropriate spell power, but can't keep up with a full caster.

Multiclassing would be weeeird though. How does that work? Say they are full casters but their Patron takes X spell slots each long rest?