D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[MarkB]

What kind of wand/staff? A Wand of the War Mage? Still takes an action to cast fireball because the person using the wand is still casting a spell. A Wand of Fireballs or a Necklace of Fireballs that states that it takes a magic action to cast a fireball? That's different.

Take Necklace of Fireballs which states that "You can use an action to detach a bead and throw it up to 60 feet away. When it reaches the end of its trajectory, the bead detonates as a 3rd-level fireball spell (save DC 15)."

Assuming for a moment that the 2024 DMG changes the wording from "use an action" to "use a magic action", then yes fast hands applies and it can be done as a bonus action. Because the user is not casting the fireball spell, they are throwing a bead and "the bead detonates as a 3rd-levl fireball spell".

As far as The Wand of Fireballs, we'll have to see what they do with the wording in the 2024 DMG. At the very least, it's an edge case but it specifically states what action it requires to activate which is different from a spell scroll.

Fair enough. Sorry for the crossed wires.

 

[Mistwell]

I've given my answer and my reasoning. A scroll, in and of itself, does not require an action to use.

OK, I'll ask again. What rule are you looking to for withdrawing AND reading a scroll as a free action, all as something separate from the Magic Action and not part of the Magic Action?

To outline the rules, the Magic Action says, "When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated."

And, "You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action...Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions."

The default action for interacting with an item separate from another type of action is Utilize, which is an action in itself. "You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of the Attack action. When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Utilize action."

Finally Fast Hands, "Use an Object. Take the Utilize action, or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action."

So if it's not included as part of the Magic Action rule for activation, where are you getting it? And if it is part of the Magic action, then how is it not a magic item which requires the magic action?

 

[Oofta]

OK, I'll ask again. What rule are you looking to for withdrawing AND reading a scroll as a free action, all as something separate from the Magic Action and not part of the Magic Action?

Drawing a scroll is an object interaction. Casting the spell on the scroll depends on the spell being cast.

To outline the rules, the Magic Action says, "When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated."

Right. But you aren't using a magic item, you're casting a spell.

And, "You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action...Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions."

The default action for interacting with an item separate from another type of action is Utilize, which is an action in itself. "You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of the Attack action. When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Utilize action."

Finally Fast Hands, "Use an Object. Take the Utilize action, or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action."

So if it's not included as part of the Magic Action rule for activation, where are you getting it? And if it is part of the Magic action, then how is it not a magic item which requires the magic action?

I don't know how much clearer I can get. The only action involved is casting a spell. Casting a spell is not using an object.

 

[ECMO3]

Right. But you aren't using a magic item, you're casting a spell.

A spell scroll is a magic item. It says so right in the PHB:

"A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1 spell, respectively, determined by the scroll’s creator."

\ The only action involved is casting a spell. Casting a spell is not using an object.

Yes .... the Magic Action .... which is one of the two action types that works with Fast Hands.

Using an Object is irrelevant and that is not even an action in the 2024 PHB.

 

[Oofta]

A spell scroll is a magic item. It says so right in the PHB.


Yes .... the Magic Action .... which is one of the two action types that works with Fast Hands.

Using an Object is irrelevant and that is not even an action in the 2024 PHB.

But the action is based on casting the spell stored in the scroll, not on an the object being used.

Again ... I've given my logic and reasoning. Feel free to disagree.

 

[ECMO3]

But the action is based on casting the spell stored in the scroll, not on an the object being used.

Again ... I've given my logic and reasoning. Feel free to disagree.

Saying that reading a scroll to cast a spell is different than using the magic action is like saying swinging a sword to try to hurt someone with it is different than using an attack action.

Reading the scroll is the thematics associated with casting the spell from it, just like swinging a sword is the thematic associated with attacking someone with it.

It is pretty clear what the intent of Fast Hands is. It is intended to be used for things like this, and using it for a scoll cantrip is objectively one of the weakest magic items you can use it with.

 

[Oofta]

Saying that reading a scroll to cast a spell is different than using the magic action is like saying swinging a sword to try to hurt someone with it is different than using an attack action.

Reading the scroll is the thematics associated with casting the spell from it, just like swinging a sword is the thematic associated with attacking someone with it.

It is pretty clear what the intent of Fast Hands is. It is intended to be used for things like this, and using it for a scoll cantrip is objectively one of the weakest magic items you can use it with.

Why keep stating the same thing, asking the the same exact question and expecting a different response?

 

[ECMO3]

Why keep stating the same thing, asking the the same exact question and expecting a different response?

I never posted what I put on the last post, so it wasn't the same thing.

 

[Oofta]

I never posted what I put on the last post, so it wasn't the same thing.

It's the same question, same proposal worded slightly differently that's been asked multiple times.

My answer is the same. There is no action, magic or otherwise associated to the object "spell scroll". The casting time is associated to the spell. Since the spell is not an item, fast hands does not apply.

 

[Mistwell]

Drawing a scroll is an object interaction. Casting the spell on the scroll depends on the spell being cast.

There is no free object interaction rule in 5.24e. It is either a utilize action, or part of another action like an attack action or a magic action.

That's why I asked you what rule you're using for this free action, if it is not part of the magic action. I don't think it exists. In this instance, for this kind of item, it is part of the magic action.