D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Mistwell]

I think the wording and the logic is clear.

Fast Hands​

As a Bonus Action, you can do one of the following.​

...​

Use an Object. Take the Utilize action, or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.​

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(underline added).

Spell Scroll (Cantrip, 30 GP Level 1, 50 GP)​

A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1 spell, respectively, determined by the scroll’s creator. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components.​

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There is no Magic Action associated with the scroll itself. The spell has to be on your class's spell list, you are casting a spell using the scroll. Since the magic item (the scroll) does not require a magic action, Fast Hands does not apply. There may be some generic scrolls in the 2024 DMG like the Scroll of Protection from the 2014 version which requires an action to read, I would assume that will now be a magic action. But that's because the scroll itself is the magic and anyone can use it.

Feel free to rule differently.

Where does it say it's a free action to take out and read a scroll?

Similarly, what is the activation cost to use a wand of magic missile?

 

[abirdcall]

A scroll of (insert spell) requires the same action as the spell it casts, which in this case is a Magic Action.

The Wand of the War Mage (a magic item) also requires a Magic Action to use.

 

[Oofta]

A scroll of (insert spell) requires the same action as the spell it casts, which in this case is a Magic Action.

Where does it say it's a free action to take out and read a scroll?

Similarly, what is the activation cost to use a wand of magic missile?

I've given my answer and my reasoning. A scroll, in and of itself, does not require an action to use. You are not using an item that requires a magic action, you are casting a spell that happens to be contained on a scroll. That spell may or may not require a magic action to cast.

If you use the other reading, a multi-classed Wizard/rogue could start casting fireballs at 16th level as a bonus action, as long as they have it on a scroll. At 20th, cone of cold as a bonus action and, since you didn't technically expend a spell slot, any other spell you want.

No matter how often the same question is asked, stated in exactly the same way, my logic and ruling is not going to change. Run it differently at your table if you want.

 

[MarkB]

If you use the other reading, a multi-classed Wizard/rogue could start casting fireballs at 16th level as a bonus action, as long as they have it on a scroll. At 20th, cone of cold as a bonus action and, since you didn't technically expend a spell slot, any other spell you want.

And they'll still be able to, using a wand or staff. Ruling out scrolls doesn't close this imagined loophole.

 

[Oofta]

And they'll still be able to, using a wand or staff. Ruling out scrolls doesn't close this imagined loophole.

They won't be able to if you don't allow them to cast a spell that requires an action to cast simply because they're casting off a scroll or (apparently?) using some other magical implement to cast.

 

[MarkB]

They won't be able to if you don't allow them to cast a spell that requires an action to cast simply because they're casting off a scroll or (apparently?) using some other magical implement to cast.

Okay, so to be clear, what you're proposing isn't your interpretation of the rules, it is very much a house rule - you won't allow Fast Hands to apply to any magic item that produces a spell effect, regardless of the wording?

Fine, I guess, but I think you're seriously overestimating the value of this feature. The Thief subclass really doesn't have much else going for it, and can't even do any of what's proposed here without multiclassing, so at absolute worst you're going to see a few nova turns each day that burn into some pretty limited resources, at the cost of a character build that's otherwise sacrificing a lot of power and flexibility.

 

[Oofta]

Okay, so to be clear, what you're proposing isn't your interpretation of the rules, it is very much a house rule - you won't allow Fast Hands to apply to any magic item that produces a spell effect, regardless of the wording?

Fine, I guess, but I think you're seriously overestimating the value of this feature. The Thief subclass really doesn't have much else going for it, and can't even do any of what's proposed here without multiclassing, so at absolute worst you're going to see a few nova turns each day that burn into some pretty limited resources, at the cost of a character build that's otherwise sacrificing a lot of power and flexibility.

No, it's my ruling based on my interpretation of the rules. If you cast a spell off a scroll, you are not using an item's magic action, you are casting a spell which may or may not require a magic action.

There is no action, magic or otherwise, associated to the item being used which in this case happens to be a spell scroll. In the same way that using a Wand of the War Mage while casting a spell does not suddenly make fast hands applicable.

Feel free to rule differently.

 

[MarkB]

No, it's my ruling based on my interpretation of the rules. If you cast a spell off a scroll, you are not using an item's magic action, you are casting a spell which may or may not require a magic action.

There is no action, magic or otherwise, associated to the item being used which in this case happens to be a spell scroll. In the same way that using a Wand of the War Mage while casting a spell does not suddenly make fast hands applicable.

Feel free to rule differently.

Okay, but I asked about wands or staffs (by which I meant, i.e., wand of fireball) and you said you'd rule the same way.

 

[Oofta]

Okay, but I asked about wands or staffs (by which I meant, i.e., wand of fireball) and you said you'd rule the same way.

What kind of wand/staff? A Wand of the War Mage? Still takes an action to cast fireball because the person using the wand is still casting a spell. A Wand of Fireballs or a Necklace of Fireballs that states that it takes a magic action to cast a fireball? That's different.

Take Necklace of Fireballs which states that "You can use an action to detach a bead and throw it up to 60 feet away. When it reaches the end of its trajectory, the bead detonates as a 3rd-level fireball spell (save DC 15)."

Assuming for a moment that the 2024 DMG changes the wording from "use an action" to "use a magic action", then yes fast hands applies and it can be done as a bonus action. Because the user is not casting the fireball spell, they are throwing a bead and "the bead detonates as a 3rd-levl fireball spell".

As far as The Wand of Fireballs, we'll have to see what they do with the wording in the 2024 DMG. At the very least, it's an edge case but it specifically states what action it requires to activate which is different from a spell scroll.

 

[abirdcall]

Yeah, throwing a bead is very much a fast hands thing (unless it is being thrown as an attack such as alchemists fire).

Casting a spell is not.