Thievery Skill - Trained vs Untrained

[The Dog]

Hey all,

I posted this a couple of weeks ago on the WOTC boards but didn't get very many insightful answers. It was suggested that more & more thoughtful answers might be found here at ENWorld....so here goes.

I tried to get an answer from Cust. Support, but it was not decisive -- I'd like to see what the majority here thinks and how they are playing this:


Q: The passage in question is the text under Thievery reading

"The DM might decide that some uses of this skill
are so specialized that you are required to be trained
in it to have a chance of succeeding."


Is this supposed to function like Knowledge skills where tougher situations on a case-by-case basis are ruled as Trained Only or are you supposed to pick certain sub-categories, like Open Locks or Sleight of Hand and have 100% of those situations be designated Trained Only? (such as with Detect Magic under Arcana or Reduce Falling Damage under Acrobatics)

Here's the first response:

This is a suggestion for a house rule. Therefore, how this rule would work would be totally up to the DM. There are not official rules to govern this.

Evan T.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

I replied:

Dear Evan T,

I understand that there is DM's subjective judgement here and there's
always latitude for house rules and that we could pick, as a house
rule, the opposite of what you answer.

I'm trying to understand how the RAW should be played. (which would
probably be the baseline rules that most other groups would be playing
by)

The choices are:

1) Certain subcategories of Thievery, be it Sleight of Hand, Open
Locks, Disable Traps, Delay Traps or Pick Pocket are designated by the
DM as (TRAINED ONLY) so that the skill functions like Detect Magic
under Arcana or Reduce Falling Damage under Acrobatics.

2) That Thievery works like the Knowledge skills in that easier tasks
anyone can do for any of the subcategories but the DM could rule that
a certain task was beyond the capability of those without training in
the skill on a case by case basis.


Thanks in advance!!!

Response:

Hello. I understand you want the baseline ruling, however, there is not one. There are no rules in the books to dictate this. If you choose to do this, how it is handled is up to your DM. The portion of the book saying ‘the DM might decide’.... is merely a suggestion for gameplay, and no rules for this have been created. I apologize.

Evan T.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

I'm kind of frustrated by this answer -- how does your group play the Thievery skill?

How do you think the RAW should be taken? Personally I think it's option #2 above, but my group is not in agreement on this one. The DM in the group leans towards option #1 above -- ruling Open Locks and Sleight of Hand as (TRAINED ONLY)

What say you? (also curious, what does organized play such as the RPGA rule on this?)

 

[theNater]

I'd say tougher situations on a case-by-case basis. If the intent of the rules were that all attempts to open a lock should be trained only, it would have been a simple matter to indicate such(as with reducing falling damage under Acrobatics).

Anybody can jam a piece of wire into a keyhole and wiggle it around in hopes of catching the mechanism. For a low-quality lock, this can provide a moderately good chance of opening it. However, special high-quality locks may have parts designed to trick the burglar, or a non-obvious mechanism that must be activated in addition to the turning of the "key" before it will unlock. Such considerations could effectively prevent amateurs from having any chance of success, while a professional would know how to identify and account for such things.

 

[chitzk0i]

I'd say tougher situations on a case-by-case basis. If the intent of the rules were that all attempts to open a lock should be trained only, it would have been a simple matter to indicate such(as with reducing falling damage under Acrobatics).

Anybody can jam a piece of wire into a keyhole and wiggle it around in hopes of catching the mechanism. For a low-quality lock, this can provide a moderately good chance of opening it. However, special high-quality locks may have parts designed to trick the burglar, or a non-obvious mechanism that must be activated in addition to the turning of the "key" before it will unlock. Such considerations could effectively prevent amateurs from having any chance of success, while a professional would know how to identify and account for such things.

Most of that kind of stuff could be handled by a higher DC, though. They probably wanted to include that bit of advice for DMs but didn't want to make an entire section in the DMG for just that.

 

[theNater]

Most of that kind of stuff could be handled by a higher DC, though. They probably wanted to include that bit of advice for DMs but didn't want to make an entire section in the DMG for just that.

Most of it, sure. But consider the following corner case:

Character A: 22nd level Halfling archery ranger. Dex 26, Jack of All Trades, not trained in Thievery. Thievery skill: +21.

Character B: 22nd level Human hammer fighter who took Thievery to help the party out. Dex 16, trained in Thievery. Thievery skill: +19.

I read the text in question as a warning to players that the GM is well within his rights to say that there are certain locks character B can open that character A cannot.

 

[On Puget Sound]

This "rule" is simply a license to do what thou wilt as DM, placed where players can read it so there is no argument. There are two possible situations:
A) your party contains a trained thief.
You can safely ignore this guideline; if there is thieving to be done the thief will do it.

B) your party does not contain a trained thief, and you
(1) want them to get to the trapped/ locked thingy, or
(2) don't.
If B) (2), then invoke this rule.

 

[The Dog]

On Puget Sound -- I completely get what you're saying.
I know that there's latitude for DMs on this -- i'm seeking the baseline that most others will be using.

Any RPGA members out there or anyone that's been to one of the conventions -- how was this handled there? Please cite the specific event.

TIA

 

[Syrsuro]

I'm kind of frustrated by this answer -- how does your group play the Thievery skill?

How do you think the RAW should be taken? Personally I think it's option #2 above, but my group is not in agreement on this one. The DM in the group leans towards option #1 above -- ruling Open Locks and Sleight of Hand as (TRAINED ONLY)

What say you? (also curious, what does organized play such as the RPGA rule on this?)

You feel 'frustrated'. I feel empowered.

This is exactly the answer you should have gotten. It is up to the DM. We don't have to all agree on the answer.

One of the most annoying part of 3.x to me was its implicit assumption that there was a specific rule for every single possible occurance. It eliminated the freedom of the DM to make rulings according to what he wanted to happen.

This philosophy is gone and I am happy to see it go.

Just decide how you want things to work and try to be consistant for your players sake.

Carl

 

[Tale]

The "baseline" is that the rules exist as written. The comment in the PHB is establishing the potential for exception to the rules. You're asking for the rules. Then ignore the potential for exception!

 

[Larrin]

Baseline is you can do anything with thievery untrained.

next step up: There are specific locks and traps that have a level of complication (seen only in 'advanced' structures (palaces, lost temples, spaceships)) that require a trained check. The DM is free to say "This lock is tricky, you need to be trained" in these locations, but probably not to get a simple padlock off a goblin farmer's barn. This is nice since its the rogues turn to shine, or a good way to force a non-thievery party to go look for the key for once. Use of it should be when there is a reason for an expensive or exotic lock/trap that logically would confuse the non-trained.

 

[MarkB]

On Puget Sound -- I completely get what you're saying.
I know that there's latitude for DMs on this -- i'm seeking the baseline that most others will be using.

Any RPGA members out there or anyone that's been to one of the conventions -- how was this handled there? Please cite the specific event.

TIA

The baseline is exactly as CSR told you - any use of Thievery may be attempted untrained.

If a DM chooses to go with the suggested houserule, they have the latitude to do so in any way they wish, so there is no baseline for using the houserule.