TSR Thieves Percentages: Expert VS Rules Cyclopedia

[Mezuka]

I'm curious. For those who lived it what did you think of the new thief skill table that extended the percentages up to 36 levels but made the odds lower. For example, a level 8 thief went from 65% odds of opening a lock to 50%.

What did you think of that as a thief player or as a DM?

 

[overgeeked]

It sucked. On both sides of the screen. So we stuck with the B/X version and extended it to 36 levels. Kept roughly the same progression by level, but went beyond 100%, and used the difference in level as a modifier. Whatever’s listed in the B/X books, for picking pockets, I think +/-5% per level difference. Anything over 100% still had a 1% chance of failure.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm curious. For those who lived it what did you think of the new thief skill table that extended the percentages up to 36 levels but made the odds lower. For example, a level 8 thief went from 65% of opening a lock to 50%.

What did you think of that as a thief player or as a DM?

Terrible.

When I think of thieves in the TSR era, I always think, "Way too powerful. Definitely need to be nerfed."

The B/X thief wasn't great, but it was better than the BECMI replacement.

 

[Mezuka]

My thief player had heard the thieves got a new skill table. He tought they would be better! I had to calm him when he saw the table. We never used it either.

 

[Yora]

How often does anyone actually play above 10th level?

It's not a new idea that D&D is mostly enjoyed between level 5 and 15, and that play often putters out around 12th to 14th level at the latest. It's always been that way. (I think spells might have much more to do with that than hit points or damage, which are highly variable in each edition.)

Making thieves worse - and they already start really bad - at the levels that are mostly played, to make them work at levels that pretty much nobody ever plays is a bad move.

 

[commandercrud]

Used it. Totally fine. A lot of noise over nothing.

 

[Mannahnin]

Terrible.

Although TBH one of my favorite house rules for Basic/Expert, BECM or OD&D is to ditch Thief skill percentages entirely, and just have them use the Hear Noise chance for everything. With a +2 for Climb Walls.

BTW, this should probably be in the D&D Older Editions sub-forum.

 

[Mezuka]

Used it. Totally fine. A lot of noise over nothing.

Did you start playing D&D with RC?

 

[commandercrud]

Did you start playing D&D with RC?

no

 

[Mezuka]

no

A man of few words.

 

[Mezuka]

Terrible.

Although TBH one of my favorite house rules for Basic/Expert, BECM or OD&D is to ditch Thief skill percentages entirely, and just have them use the Hear Noise chance for everything. With a +2 for Climb Walls.

BTW, this should probably be in the D&D Older Editions sub-forum.

When did you start using that house rule?

 

[Mannahnin]

When did you start using that house rule?

Just within the past few years, though I haven't actually gotten to use it that much. Most of the time I play OSE more than run it, and most DMs I've played with just leave Thief skills as-is, with a (to me) predictable result of Thieves being rare.

 

[Jer]

What did you think of that as a thief player or as a DM?

Shockingly, I rarely had a thief in our parties. My little brother played one for a while and the "joke" was that he was the most incompetent thief in all the land because he almost always failed his rolls. Eventually he gave up on thieves and started playing an Elf.

Later when I started thinking about the game as something designed and probabilities as something to be weighed I realized that it wasn't that my brother was unlucky - it was that the game set him up to fail.

 

[Weiley31]

Wouldn't be able to say: I favor the house rule of swapping said Thieves Table out with the Specialist Skill table from Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

 

[J.Quondam]

Shockingly, I rarely had a thief in our parties. My little brother played one for a while and the "joke" was that he was the most incompetent thief in all the land because he almost always failed his rolls. Eventually he gave up on thieves and started playing an Elf.

Later when I started thinking about the game as something designed and probabilities as something to be weighed I realized that it wasn't that my brother was unlucky - it was that the game set him up to fail.

Yeah, a friend of mine back then loved the idea of thief characters,* but hated actually playing them because they were so bad. The joke was to flip a coin before opening our front door to see if the thief could successfully come in and be played that day.



* Later in life, I found out this guy was a routine shoplifter. But probably no correlation, right?

 

[Yora]

Thieves in either version can somewhat work at lower levels if you treat the skills not as normal thieving activities, but as superhuman feats.
Hiding in shadows when there is nothing to hide behind. Moving without any sound, even in a quiet place. Climbing on surfaces that are impossible to climb for anyone else. The abilities are not called "hide", "move quietly", and "climb" for a reason. Finding and Removing traps with a die roll is for when players describing what they look for and how they attempt to disable traps did not accomplish anything.
It does break down with Open Locks somewhat. But even that can be interpreted as opening locks without alerting people on the other side.

If for any other situations, you "assume competence" and let thieves do things any thief should be able to do, then they are not that bad.
The text doesn't say that, because the text doesn't say anything. But it seems plausible in the context of what is reported of the earliest ways in which D&D and its prototypes were played before thieves even were a thing.

 

[CleverNickName]

Used it. Totally fine. A lot of noise over nothing.

Yep, same here. We used both, and didn't really notice an appreciable difference. 15% looks like a lot on paper, but in practice it rarely mattered.

 

[Mezuka]

Yep, same here. We used both, and didn't really notice an appreciable difference. 15% looks like a lot on paper, but in practice it rarely mattered.

Doctor: 'The operation has a 65% chance of success.'

Patient: 'No problemo doctor, as long as I have 50% I'm good. I don't need the extra 15%.'

Doctor: (perplexed) 'Let's do a brain scan while you are here.'

 

[CleverNickName]

Doctor: 'The operation has a 65% chance of success.'

Patient: 'No problemo doctor, as long as I have 50% I'm good. I don't need the extra 15%.'

Doctor: (perplexed) 'Let's do a brain scan while you are here.'

This is a tabletop roleplaying game, not a life-threatening medical procedure.

 

[Mezuka]

This is a tabletop roleplaying game, not a life-threatening medical procedure.

DM: You have 65% of jumping over the chasm or fall to your death.

Players: 'No problemo, as long as I have 50% I'm good. I don't need the extra 15%.'

DM: (perplexed) 'So be it. You have 50% then.'

As his character is falling to his death the player admits he would have like to have the extra 15%.

Numbers matter in a RPG. 15% is the equivalent of a +3 weapon. It matters a lot in the context of the adventure.