CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
Yep, like I said: it seems like a lot on paper, but didn't seem like that much of a difference in practice.
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TSR Thieves Percentages: Expert VS Rules Cyclopedia
- Thread starter Mezuka
- Start date
Mezuka
Hero
Frank Mentzer, the TSR designer who created the 36 level thief table, admitted that he dropped the ball on that one. He even proposed a new thief.
Quote: "All the character chasses represented in BECM (compiled in the R.C.) are based on a 36-level system. Overall their character and usage parallel the Original, Holmes, and Moldvay/ Cook editions. The Thief, however, suffers badly from the spread."
You can find the pdf at this link. ExTSR is Mentzer.
Quote: "All the character chasses represented in BECM (compiled in the R.C.) are based on a 36-level system. Overall their character and usage parallel the Original, Holmes, and Moldvay/ Cook editions. The Thief, however, suffers badly from the spread."
You can find the pdf at this link. ExTSR is Mentzer.
Yeah I mean, that's equal to +3 on a d20. Nobody is going to say "oh well, I don't really need a +3 bonus."
eyeheartawk
#1 Enworld Jerk™
Almost as useless as the percentile skill increases you get in Palladium.
We pretty much always ignored the percentile thief skills when playing B/X or BECMI. Since we wanted the thief to actually be good at thief things.
We pretty much always ignored the percentile thief skills when playing B/X or BECMI. Since we wanted the thief to actually be good at thief things.
cimbrog
Explorer
I just gave Thieves extra skills from the optional Cyclopedia skill system to match their class skills. Used a weird-ass proto-target number system against it. (Basically, using your thief skill was a contested roll. Against inanimate objects like locks the ability was based on how hard it was. So an "easy" lock would have an ability of 5 - whomever rolled the highest under their ability score won.)
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
+3 on a d20 that you roll every round, with consequences that can result in the death of a character? Pretty big deal.
+3 on a d20 that you roll every few rounds, with consequences that might result in a wasted action? Not a big deal.
+3 on a d20 that you roll 0-3 times per game, with the only consequence being "you smash the lock instead"? Hardly noticeable. It seems like a lot on paper, but doesn't feel like much of a difference in practice. Which is what I said.
I might have observed more of a difference if that 15% adjustment was being applied to the thief's save throws or attack rolls, but it wasn't. That 15% adjustment was applied to Open Locks. How many locked doors did your thief encounter in a typical gaming session? It must have been dozens, if you're comparing it to attack rolls and save throws. And the consequences must have been dire indeed, if you're comparing that Open Locks check to survival rates of medical treatment.
But at my table, it was a roll that I needed to make maybe once or twice every few gaming sessions, and it was rarely a big deal if I failed. So it was, and remains, a tempest in a teapot for me.
+3 on a d20 that you roll every few rounds, with consequences that might result in a wasted action? Not a big deal.
+3 on a d20 that you roll 0-3 times per game, with the only consequence being "you smash the lock instead"? Hardly noticeable. It seems like a lot on paper, but doesn't feel like much of a difference in practice. Which is what I said.
I might have observed more of a difference if that 15% adjustment was being applied to the thief's save throws or attack rolls, but it wasn't. That 15% adjustment was applied to Open Locks. How many locked doors did your thief encounter in a typical gaming session? It must have been dozens, if you're comparing it to attack rolls and save throws. And the consequences must have been dire indeed, if you're comparing that Open Locks check to survival rates of medical treatment.
But at my table, it was a roll that I needed to make maybe once or twice every few gaming sessions, and it was rarely a big deal if I failed. So it was, and remains, a tempest in a teapot for me.
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Voadam
Legend
I felt they were horribly disappointing.
Coming from B/X I expected thieves to be getting new cooler thief abilities at the 15+ range. Something like how AD&D thieves got to use scrolls at level 10 and form thieves guilds, but I was hoping for more James Bond supercompetent spy type abilities or other cool new things for them to do.
Thieves were terrible in B/X, ranging into ok for their thief skills in the X range. Seeing thieves never really come into their own with cool new abilities and regress to lower competency at higher levels when I got the BECMI companion set was severely disappointing.
Conceptually I prefer stuff like Necrotic Gnome's B/X Rogue with gaining feat type abilities as a model for thief skills.
Coming from B/X I expected thieves to be getting new cooler thief abilities at the 15+ range. Something like how AD&D thieves got to use scrolls at level 10 and form thieves guilds, but I was hoping for more James Bond supercompetent spy type abilities or other cool new things for them to do.
Thieves were terrible in B/X, ranging into ok for their thief skills in the X range. Seeing thieves never really come into their own with cool new abilities and regress to lower competency at higher levels when I got the BECMI companion set was severely disappointing.
Conceptually I prefer stuff like Necrotic Gnome's B/X Rogue with gaining feat type abilities as a model for thief skills.
Voadam
Legend
I kind of agree. They were terrible in B/X and making decently mid level BECMI thieves as incompetent at their skills as lower level B/X thieves is not that big of an impact to how you play a D&D thief at the table. B/X thieves were still fairly vulnerable people with no magic abilities. You had to play them focusing on attitude and style and roleplay concept as they trailed on power in most every dimension.
2e's Dragon Kings solves the epic level Thief problem rather nicely by adding 6 new Thieving Abilities you can learn: Detect Magic, Detect Illusion, Forge Document, Bribe Official, Dig Tunnel, and Escape Bonds.
rogueattorney
Adventurer
I prefer the B/X level range to the BECMI/RC level range, and thus prefer the B/X thief charts. Frank Mentzer has made a few statements in the past about not being overly fond of the Thief class. So it doesn’t surprise me that he didn’t think too deeply about how the change in power curve would affect them.
For what it’s worth, here’s my three bits of advice to DMs on helping the thief in old school (ish) D&D:
1. Don’t create consequences for failing their thief skill rolls that aren’t explicitly in the rules. Failing to find or disarm a trap doesn’t automatically set it off. Failing to move silently, hide in shadows or pick pockets doesn’t automatically mean the thief is detected. And so on. I’ve seen too many DMs punish the thieves for attempting their abilities, when the thief’s missed attempt at a skill should generally no more disastrous than a fighter missing on a to hit roll.
2. Keep in mind that the thief skill percentages are for time sensitive attempts in dungeon conditions. In better conditions, the thief will have a better chance to perform the task. For example, if the party can get the locked treasure chest to a well-lit inn and the thief can work on the lock at his leisure, he’ll eventually get it opened.
3. In general, don’t let other members of the party automatically do what you require the thief to roll for. For example, I’ve seen too many times when after a failed open locks attempt, the DM just lets the fighter bash it open with his mace. What’s the point of that?
For what it’s worth, here’s my three bits of advice to DMs on helping the thief in old school (ish) D&D:
1. Don’t create consequences for failing their thief skill rolls that aren’t explicitly in the rules. Failing to find or disarm a trap doesn’t automatically set it off. Failing to move silently, hide in shadows or pick pockets doesn’t automatically mean the thief is detected. And so on. I’ve seen too many DMs punish the thieves for attempting their abilities, when the thief’s missed attempt at a skill should generally no more disastrous than a fighter missing on a to hit roll.
2. Keep in mind that the thief skill percentages are for time sensitive attempts in dungeon conditions. In better conditions, the thief will have a better chance to perform the task. For example, if the party can get the locked treasure chest to a well-lit inn and the thief can work on the lock at his leisure, he’ll eventually get it opened.
3. In general, don’t let other members of the party automatically do what you require the thief to roll for. For example, I’ve seen too many times when after a failed open locks attempt, the DM just lets the fighter bash it open with his mace. What’s the point of that?
Voadam
Legend
Possible points of allowing that:
1) there is more than one way to skin a cat.
2) success does not hinge on one percentile roll.
3) smashing a chest open can have consequences on the glass vials inside and on making noise that attracts wandering monsters that picking a lock does not.
4) there is a knock spell.
5) success does not hinge on having any one specific class in the party.
6) the existence of thief abilities does not stop others from doing reasonable things.
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