Things are not better, down where it's wetter...

[Greenfield]

Under water adventuring is an odd thing. Our game is currently in the middle of the Plane of Water.

I was refreshing my recollection of the rules and I came across an oddity in the action table.

Table: Combat Adjustments Underwater
————— Attack/Damage —————
Condition .....................Slashing or Bludgeoning .........Tail ........... Movement Off Balance?4
Freedom of movement normal/normal normal/normal normal No
Has a swim speed –2/half normal normal No
Successful Swim check –2/half1 –2/half quarter or half2 No
Firm footing3 –2/half –2/half half No
None of the above –2/half –2/half normal Yes

1 A creature without a freedom of movement effects or a swim speed makes grapple checks underwater at a –2 penalty, but deals damage normally when grappling.
2 A successful Swim check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.
3 Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.
4 Creatures flailing about in the water (usually because they failed their Swim checks) have a hard time fighting effectively.
An off-balance creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and opponents gain a +2 bonus on attacks against it.

My question is about the "None of the above" entry. The way that reads, a person with no swim speed, a failed swin check, no Freedom of Movement and no firm footing moves at normal speed, faster than if they'd succeeded on the Swim check.

Can someone tell me what I'm misreading?

 

[Umbran]

That's how it reads, yes. That's how it appears in my 3.5e DMG, and the Pathfinder SRD.

Curious.

You might say that, lacking freedom of movement, swim speed, or firm footing, you must make a swim check. The swim skill then says "Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action)." Like we see in the table. It continues with, "If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress through the water. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater."

So, you move at normal speed for someone who has failed a swim check, which is 0, or "sinking straight down" speed, depending on how badly you failed.

 

[delericho]

So, you move at normal speed for someone who has failed a swim check, which is 0, or "sinking straight down" speed, depending on how badly you failed.

I would concur with this.

It might be worth checking the "Rules Compendium" - it has a fairly large section on handling underwater events, which I recall finding useful when it came up in my campaign. Also "Stormwrack", of course.

 

[Greenfield]

Consider this: A character neither makes nor fails at the Swim check because they don't try. They just decide to walk on the slippery bottom.

By that table, they move at normal speed, and the rules for Swim checks never come into play.

Yeah, it's stupid. It's just the rules.

 

[Umbran]

Consider this: A character neither makes nor fails at the Swim check because they don't try. They just decide to walk on the slippery bottom.

The modifiers in the table listed in the OP, "...apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom."

By the rules, what you are suggesting would be "firm footing":

"Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium."

A character with firm footing moves at half speed.

Now, I'm going to say that the fact you describe the bottom as "slippery" isn't relevant in this regard. For the table, what matters is if the character can reach the bottom at all. But, even if it did apply, a character walking on a "slippery" bottom certainly shouldn't move faster than one with "Firm footing" on the bottom, now should they?

 

[Greenfield]

"Firm Footing" is listed on the table. I'm going for the "None of the above", which would imply no swim check attempted (or a failed one, at worst interpretation), and no firm footing (hence my reference to a slippery lake or riverbed).

That's what makes it so silly. By that table, if you're at all competent or have any factors in your favor at all, you're worse off (movement wise) than if you just try to pretend that the water isn't there.

Let me put this in context, please: I think I've mentions the "Game within the game" we play at my table, the one we call "The stupidest rule I've ever heard of". This is where we find rules that, taken as written, just make your jaw drop.

I'm not arguing that the table is right, or that things should be played this way, I'm just verifying that the rule, as written, is a viable entry in our "Dumbest rule" contest.

Previous entries have been the 3.0 rule that had iron pots selling for less than the same weight of raw iron from the trade goods table. In 3.5, a 10 foot ladder (which could be broken into two 10 foot poles) selling for less than a 10 foot pole. In D&D 4.0, a Fireball filling a cube-shaped area, and doing no damage at all to inanimate objects. In the original Champions, you could buy a million Con points, then sell back the Endurance, Stun and Energy Defense that resulted, and get back more points than the Constitution score cost. A Car Wars game that neglected to include a Reverse gear on any vehicle. In Shadow Run, the Deadly damage that would hospitalize or kill someone who fell off a bar stool. Shadow Run again, where the only way to kill someone with a grenade was to leave the pin firmly in place, and throw it like a rock. (You get to add Strength and skill modifiers to the damage that way, while setting it off does a less-than-deadly wound and ignores skill.)

I could go on, but you get the idea. I was just verifying that the entry in this table was a stupid rule.

 

[Umbran]

"Firm Footing" is listed on the table. I'm going for the "None of the above", which would imply no swim check attempted (or a failed one, at worst interpretation), and no firm footing (hence my reference to a slippery lake or riverbed).

My point is that the situation you described is Firm Footing, not "none of the above". I don't see how someone walking on a slippery footing is going to go faster than someone who has good footing on that same surface!

A failed check is covered under the swim rules - you make no headway.

I'd opt for - the table is wrong, and folks copy it. Nobody has really ever cared to correct it. Change the Movement on that line to "none" and it makes sense.

 

[Stormonu]

A Car Wars game that neglected to include a Reverse gear on any vehicle..

FYI, re Car Wars: "Any vehicle except a cycle may move in reverse at up to 20 mph. A vehicle may not go from forward or backward speed (or vice versa) without stopping for one turn. Acceleration rules are the same as for forward movement. Any maneuver may be made in reverse; the difficulty class is one higher." (Car Wars Deluxe, p 10)