D&D 4E Things from 4E Not Done Well

[Zaukrie]

Presentation and art....rehashed art, no real "style" that said 4E, the books weren't readable.

Marketing (PR on day 1 is about 100x better already)
Lack of a story and world....D&D should have a shared experience (imo)
Lack of adventures for starting DMs, lack of iconic adventures we all bought
No entry level kit to just start playing
Insufficient non-combat powers, skills, crunch

 

[MatthewJHanson]

+x magic items (applies to other additions)
Feat Taxes

 

[Stormonu]

1) Cookie-cutter monster stat building
2) Skill challenge implementation (great idea, horrible implementation out of the gate)
3) Mundane gear is worthless after a few levels
4) Magic gear must constantly be upgraded to the "new, improved level X version"
5) Rituals
6) Grow-as-you-grow DCs/AC/Defenses (its like running in place)
7) Hit point inflation of monsters and PCs
8) Balance is all theology
9) Fixed roles for classes, instead of build-your-role choices of power suites
10) Too much skill consolidation
11) Too specific powers instead of general, semi-customizable abilities.
12) Residiuum
13) Too many set-piece, unavoidable, superfluous, fixated combat encounters in published adventures
14) Too much "core" elements of the previous editions spread over more books.

 

[BryonD]

+ 1/2 level everywhere
npcs have their own rules
"the math works"
trying to replace a reliance on DM skill with a system that assumes the DM might be a newbie
powers that expect you to fit narrative to their mechanics
healing surges and anything else that hand waves narrative continuity
stuff that works once per encounter and not more and not less




This:
"whenever we were approaching a new class we had to home in on what makes this guy special and unique within in the game - not just in the world of D&D but, since we’re playing a game, why is this game piece different than another game piece and why do I want to play it instead another game piece."

 

[Argyle King]

Grappling/Grab

 

[Dragonblade]

Some of the stuff you guys post is stuff I love about 4e.

What I dislike about 4e:

Minis required
No in combat recovery mechanic for encounter powers
Rituals never reached their potential
Too many fiddly petty magic items instead of a few rare awesome ones
Magic items built into the math (later remedied with inherent bonuses)
Some fiddliness with class powers.

I love virtually everything else about 4e!

 

[Greg K]

1. Ability Scores
a. choosing from multiple for defenses
b. Con bonus to hit
c. Int, Wis, Cha to hit by default
d. Int, Con, etc as extra bonus to AC for some classes

2. Races
a. putting Dragonborn and Tieflings in PHB
b. removing penalties for being small
c. PC and NPC of the same race using different rules
d. Eladrin: Fey Walk
e. Half Elf: Dilletante
f. Half Elf: Group Diplomacy
g. Shifter: cool in concept
h. Shardminds
i. Wilden
j. 4e Warforged


3. Classes
a. Avenger
b. Barbarian: Cold, Fire, Thunder Keyword Powers
c. Bard: Versatility
d. Cleric
e. Fighter: Come and Get It (even after fix)
f. Paladin: Divine Challenge
g. Rogue: Weapon Proficiecies, Blinding Barrage, Sneak Attack
h. Sorcerer
i. Warlock: Infernal and Starpact as PCs; several powers
j. Warlord: Inspiring Word (want distinction between this and magical healing)
k. Battlemind (who the hell named this class?)
l. Artificer:
k. Assassin: Shadow Powers
l. Vampire as a class

4. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies being mandatory for those tiers

5. Skills
a. Over consolidation
b. +1/2 level bonus
c. removal of skill points

6. Feats: Too many (same problem as 3e)

7. Powers:
a. Martial Powers (I like that martial characters get cool things, but prefer BOIM maneuvers)
b. Way too many (feel same about pre 4e spells)
c. Encounter and Daily Powers
d. Focus on powers doing damage
e. Changing magic missile back to no hit roll
f. Disconnect between power fluff and the logic of events in the "world"

8. Combat:
a. no grappling in PHB
b. no sunder, because "not fun"
c. no disarm in PHB, because "not fun"


9. Hit Points, Healing Points and Second Wind
a. Hit Points becoming more abstract
b. Hit Point inflation
c. Healing Surges and amount based upon role
d. Not differentiating between magical and non magical healing
e. Second Wind (good in theory, don't like the application)

10. Default Pantheon is mostly comprised of deities from various pantheons of other settings (lame)

11. Default setting in the core and non-setting books. Looking at things like the Divine Channeling feats.

12. Encounter Focus

13. Encounter based Milestones

14. Page 42
a. Skill DC based on level rather than 3e approach of "Common Standard"
b. Damage based on level
c. not including the worth of "riders"

15. Residuum
16. Rituals (I like the concept, but not implementation)
17. Armor Class inflation
18. Supplements
a. Parcelling Demons Lords throughout products rather than collecting them into the book on demons.
b. PHB2, PHB3 as a collection of various materials rather than introducing each race and class in their own supplement where they can get more indepth treatment.

 

[Dausuul]

For me (as a 4E player and DM):

• Too much standardization, especially in early 4E. All classes using the AEDU structure and all attack powers dealing damage, including spells like fear, I found both immersion-wrecking and mechanically bland.
• Carelessness in flavor and terminology. "Healing surge" is probably the worst; a mechanic which often has nothing to do with healing should have a different name. I favor "heroic surge," myself.
• Magic items. BO-RING. Essentials tried to fix this, but with only middling success. Also, the prices for top-end magic items are beyond insane.
• No non-Vancian casters. This is just a personal peeve, but I was promised non-Vancian wizards, dangit! Even with Essentials, every damn caster class has that "use it and lose it" mechanic. If there were one thing I'd consider going back to 3E for, it'd be the sorceror.
• Combat overly fussy and complex at high levels. It's not as bad as high-level 3E, but still way too much number-crunching and bookkeeping.

 

[Dragonblade]

1. Ability Scores
a. choosing from multiple for defenses
b. Con bonus to hit
c. Int, Wis, Cha to hit by default
d. Int, Con, etc as extra bonus to AC for some classes

2. Races
a. putting Dragonborn and Tieflings in PHB
b. removing penalties for being small
c. PC and NPC of the same race using different rules
d. Eladrin: Fey Walk
e. Half Elf: Dilletante
f. Half Elf: Group Diplomacy
g. Shifter: cool in concept
h. Shardminds
i. Wilden
j. 4e Warforged


3. Classes
a. Avenger
b. Barbarian
c. Bard: Versatility
d. Cleric
e. Fighter: Come and Get It (even after fix)
f. Paladin: Divine Challenge
g. Rogue: Weapon Proficiecies, Blinding Barrage, Sneak Attack
h. Sorcerer
i. Warlock
j. Warlord: Inspiring Word
k. Battlemind (who the hell named this class?)
l. Artificer
k. Assassin
l. Vampire as a class

4. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies being mandatory for those tiers

5. Skills
a. Over consolidation
b. +1/2 level bonus
c. removal of skill points

6. Feats: Too many (same problem as 3e)

7. Powers:
a. Martial Powers
b. Way too many (feel same about pre 4e spells)
c. Encounter and Daily Powers
d. Focus on powers doing damage
e. Changing magic missile back to no hit roll
f. Disconnect between power fluff and the logic of events in the "world"

8. Combat:
a. no grappling in PHB
b. no sunder, because "not fun"
c. no disarm in PHB, because "not fun"


9. Hit Points, Healing Points and Second Wind
a. Hit Points becoming more abstract
b. Hit Point inflation
c. Healing Surges and amount based upon role
d. Not differentiating between magical and non magical healing
e. Second Wind (good in theory, don't like the application)

10. Default Pantheon is mostly comprised of deities from various pantheons of other settings (lame)

11. Default setting in the core and non-setting books. Looking at things like the Divine Channeling feats.

12. Encounter Focus

13. Encounter based Milestones

14. Page 42
a. Skill DC based on level rather than 3e approach of "Common Standard"
b. Damage based on level
c. not including the worth of "riders"

15. Residuum
16. Rituals
17. Armor Class inflation
18. Supplements
a. Parcelling Demons Lords throughout products rather than collecting them into the book on demons.
b. PHB2, PHB3 as a collection of various materials rather than introducing each race and class in their own supplement where they can get more indepth treatment.

That's your NOT done well list? Because 90% of that list I consider features of 4e that vastly improved the game over 3e.

It will be interesting to see how 5e can reconcile people like us with vastly different tastes in gaming.

 

[FireLance]

I generally like 4e, so if I had one criticism, it would be that I had so much fun playing through (combat) encounters that I barely took the time to roleplay.

One other point, which makes little difference to me, but which a great deal of other people apparently care about: try not to get too creative (believe me, the irony of this does not escape me) with the core rules. Just stick to the tried-and-tested standard fantasy tropes. Come and get it works better in the real world (IMO, based on how many people were lining up to bash it) than it does in fantasy.