D&D 4E Things from 4E Not Done Well

SKyOdin

First Post
I strongly disagree about class bloat accusation, but I guess this isn't the place for that.

Anyways, as a convert from 3E to 4E, for me the most fundamental problem of 4E, and likely the source of many of the complaints against it, is the overly constrained design of the class/power system. While I think the addition of powers to every class is 4E's biggest strength, the structure of powers was too similar across classes. There are actually quite a few endemic problems with 4E's power system: you had to read through long lists of very technically complex powers to get a good feeling for what the class is like, it is difficult to keep a consistant theme of what kind of powers you primarily use (such as an ice mage), and access to utility powers and non-attack powers is more limited that what I would like.

I think 5E absolutely needs to have powers available, but there are a lot of ways to improve upon 4E's implementation.
 

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nightwalker450

First Post
Squares
I liked my circles being circle, if you want ease of bursts, then I recommend moving D&D to hex (Like that'll happen), otherwise bring back the 1-2-1 movement, and oddly shaped blast areas, so that way I can keep my euclidean geometry.

Daily Resources
Required there to be a standard day in adventuring. But there isn't, and it shouldn't be forced. Have these based on story elements, or per number of encounters.

Daily Healing
I like healing surges, I like healing to full each day... But there was little room to hamper a party across multiple days. Diseases were good, but perhaps due to skill escalation hardly ever stuck for a long enough period. There was also no general "that was a difficult encounter that I'll be feeling for a couple days." Perhaps have some way in general combat that a lasting effect will happen that will take time to heal. Key it off of a character falling unconscious, so for each time they fall unconscious they start the next day with one less healing surge (that lessens by one per day). Or even go deeper into the exploration rules, that unless you're in a bed with good food/water you don't get a "full" extended rest.

Enhancement Bonuses
Magic Items aren't magic if they are required, enough said. Enhancement bonus to damage is fine, but to attack.. not so great.

Unkept Math
It started out good, but as more was added it got messy. This goes for Skills, and Attack bonuses mainly, and can be best solved by getting rid of untyped bonuses.
Background + Theme + Class + Race + Feat + Level/2 + Attribute + Skill Training + Enhancement + Item + Power Bonus + *Conditional Untyped*
Figure this out at the beginning as to what the limits are. For skills these should total up to probably a 80% success at a difficult task (just throwing numbers).
For attacks... Well I'd prefer to go high accuracy, and let the effects/damage control the combat. So minimum 75% maximum 95% (1 is a miss always so cranking it beyond that is just to put you in a better position if you get into combats way above your level).
For most probably minimum 60% maximum 85% is probably reasonable.

Rituals / Skill Rituals (name escapes me)
Rituals were too expensive to cast. Skill Rituals had the problem that they were restricted to Martial only. Otherwise a good concept. The ritual one can be fixed by removing cash from balanced resources (namely don't have enhancement bonuses to attacks/defenses). Then prices can be set at a value based on actual worth, instead of trying to match some expected cash per level.
 
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Ferrous

First Post

Combat Takes Too Long

On one hand, I like the tactical options that 4e offers. Unfortunately, I've found it very difficult to get even a fairly mundane encounter resolved in much less than an hour of play time. By the time a typical encounter was finished, we'd been out of the "flow" of the game long enough that it would take some time to get back on track.

The amount of time that it takes to play out a combat encounter in 4e (45 min to an hour or more seems to be very typical) coupled with the 4 or 5 encounters that characters are expected to be able to handle in one game day means that it's likely that one game day will extend across multiple play sessions. For those of us that play once every 2 to 3 weeks, that is not very appealing, as people often forget what they were doing, even though it was "earlier that same day" in the game world. Sure, you can run fewer, more challenging encounters to make up for this, but those often tend to take more time to resolve.

Combat used to provide a nice change of pace from slower, methodical exploration -- that's not just nostalgia, as I ran some B/X and AD&D 1e games in the past year and it held true. My experience with 4e is that combat often just kills the pacing of a session. A climactic encounter with some build-up was a blast for the first 20 or even 30 minutes. After that, player interest dropped off quickly.

4e combat length also makes random encounters -- once a major deterrent to taking frequent rests-- problematic. The time investment required to run a 4e encounter is such that any battles which are not important to the story can feel like a waste of time. But I'm tempted to allow the players to rest without incident because otherwise I feel like I'm punishing the players by wasting their time.

Class Bloat

Once you get through the traditional D&D classes, it gets harder to justify the existence of a class. Some of them don't seem to represent mythical or fictional archetypes; some of the PH2 and PH3 classes seemed like they existed to fill out a combination of role and power source, with the story elements added after the fact. Did the avenger and invoker need to be distinct classes, or could they have been alternate builds for the paladin and cleric? The "primal" power source reads as basically the "druid" power source, with the barbarian feeling kind of shoehorned in.

Powers are too Specific

The powers system seems very inflexible to me, as most powers have very precise effects, which in turn leads to the proliferation of different powers. It also makes characters overly specialized. Yes, if you want your "fighter" to be an expert archer, play a Ranger instead, but it's barely worthwhile for anyone other than the Ranger to bother with a bow, as no other classes in the PHB or PHB2 have any powers that work with a bow, and its 1d10 damage is rather insignificant in the context of 4e monster hit points.

The Essentials approach of basic attacks modified by stances was definitely an improvement on this.

Swinging my Sword with Charisma and Visciously Mocking an Ooze

This has been discussed to death. Yes, it can be rationalized, but after a while we got tired of trying to explain some of this stuff. Most of these "dissociated mechanics" can be explained creatively, but it can pull people of the game while we try to figure out a good way to fit it into the narrative.

Too Many Fiddly Bits

Temporary hit points are handed out like candy and are another thing to have to track.

There are too many +1/-1/+2/-2 to hit/damage/AC/defenses until the start/end of your/target's next turn effects. They are common enough that an individual's modifier to these stats can differ by a point or two every single round of combat. It's too much mental effort to track for a relatively trivial bonus.



This is it for me. I tried to like 4th edition and I was the one cheer leading and running a game. However it did not work for our group at least. The whacking the bad guy with your charisma and shouting someone conscious just prooved too much for our tastes. Of course it is easy to mock. However it is particulary easy to mock the stupid.
 
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Nebulous

Legend
That's your NOT done well list? Because 90% of that list I consider features of 4e that vastly improved the game over 3e.

It will be interesting to see how 5e can reconcile people like us with vastly different tastes in gaming.

I don't think it can be done. I think, honestly, at best, 5e will allow groups of gamers with similar tastes to all gather under the banner of 5e and play the kind of game they want. And if WotC can at least pull that off, they will have a rousing success.
 

nightwalker450

First Post
Swinging weapons with other stats was fine based on:
I'm good with a weapon, and charismatic.

The only way to really fix this (outside of MAD of other editions, which is just a horse of a different color), is remove attribute from attack bonus. Which is fine by me, replace Modifier + 1/2 level with 1/2 level. Then the scrawny bard duelist is just as good at hitting as the beefy fighter. The fighter just hits harder.

Or better give characters three attack bases (Ranged, Melee, Spell):
Fighter +1 Ranged, +3 Melee, +0 Spell
Wizard +1 Ranged, +0 Melee, +3 Spell
Swordmage +0 Ranged, +2 Melee, +2 Spell
Rogue +1 Ranged, +1 Melee, +0 Spell (Distribute 2 Points to Melee or Ranged)
Archer +3 Ranged, +1 Melee, +0 Spell
Ranger +2 Ranged, +1 Melee, +1 Spell
Druid +0 Ranged, +1 Melee, +3 Spell
--Shapeshift! +0 Ranged, +3 Melee, +0 Spell
... Ok this was too fun writing these, but you get the idea.
 

herrozerro

First Post
* Gave barely a pittance to roleplaying, was clearly designed for convention-style play.
* The characters need to built from the concept first, not by hashing together a bunch of numbers and slapping a quick background on them.
* Each edition has its fine balance of the characters feeling like a bunch of numbers with a skin over them, but 4E didn't even give us the skin!

these are all closely related and I feel are wrong.

PBH pg6: "In an adventure, you can
attempt anything you can think of. Want to talk to
the dragon instead of fighting it? Want to disguise
yourself as an orc and sneak into the foul lair? Go
ahead and give it a try. Your actions might work or
they might fail spectacularly, but either way you’ve
contributed to the unfolding story of the adventure
and probably had fun along the way."

PG14: First, take a minute to imagine your character. Think
about the kind of hero you want your character to
be. Your character exists in your imagination—all the
game statistics do is help you determine what your
character can do in the game.
Do you like fantasy
fiction featuring dwarves or elves? Try building a character
of one of those races. Do you want your character
to be the toughest adventurer at the table? Try choosing
fighter or paladin for your character class. If you
don’t know where else to begin, take a look at the art
that appears throughout this book and the brief character
descriptions in each race entry in Chapter 3, and
see what catches your interest.

pg18-25: Roleplaying Touching on subjects such as mannerisms, appearance and background.
 

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