Argyle King
Legend
Same here. I'm hardly the biggest 4E fan, but a lot of the things on that list are things I feel were done very very well. (Dragonborn were cool; though I could agree that 4E Tieflings didn't speak to me at all.)
D&D 4E Things from 4E Not Done Well
Same here. I'm hardly the biggest 4E fan, but a lot of the things on that list are things I feel were done very very well. (Dragonborn were cool; though I could agree that 4E Tieflings didn't speak to me at all.)
I clarified a few more specifics about some of the classes (e.g., Barbarian having Cold, Fire, and Thunder Powers, Assassin's Shadow Powers) and, in at least one instance (i.e. Rituals), specified that I liked the concept, but not the execution.
However, that is my list.
There are some things that I do think 4e does better than previous editions as I wrote in another thread. I wish they had been implemented in 3e ( a few I had even listed in my pre-3e TSR questionaire). There are even some things that I think were good ideas, but not the 4e implementation. However, overall, I am not a fan of the game.
As for how they will reconcile people like us with vastly different tastes, I don't know. That is what I am waiting to see. I am not even sure that they can bring me back.
While I am willing to run 3e, it is not with the majority of 3e supplements-especially, their class and race books or their later supplements (Book of Nine Swords, Tome of Magic, etc.), my choices are Savage Worlds or, for d20 class/level, True20.
I want Martial characters to have more cool stuff, but I want a Book of Iron Might approach. This is what I think page 42 should have been with regards to adjudicating martial maneuvers- not damage by level.
I am also sick of tons of spells/powers many of which are just variations of one another with a) variations of trappings/keywords or b) bonuses to hit, damage and/or ac. Often with crappy fluff that does not fit. Hell, save me the time, just give me an effects based system with a list basic effect powers as done in Savage Worlds, Hero, M&M, Tri-stat and let me as the DM work with the players to define appropriate special effects/trappings and apply keywords as appropriate to my campaign.
But yeah, again, I wonder how they are going to satisfy so many divergent tastes.
The Human Target
Adventurer
Some of you could have just said "everything different than other editions" and saved yourself some time.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
I like Savage Worlds, and I'm with you on the True20 and I'm a big M&M fan. I own every True20, Blue Rose, and M&M 1e, 2e, and 3e product produced. Awesome stuff from Green Ronin!
But I love me some Tome of Battle. Best 3e supplement hands down in my opinion.
mach1.9pants
Hero
The grind.... Combat takes too long even after I start reducing HP and increasing damage
Not quite enough nods to realism (and I was quite keen on that in the build up)
Not quite enough nods to realism (and I was quite keen on that in the build up)
1) The grind.
A) Fights take too long. Usually I want shorter fights so that there is more time to do other things.
B) Fights take too long. Sometimes I want shorter fights so that I can have more of them.
2) PC's are always at 100% of their hit points the next day (barring disease). This shatters my suspension of disbelief.
3) The rules need to be better consolidated. No more rules where the definition of encumbered is on one page and the _effects_ of encumbered are 100 pages later.
4) A role playing game needs more role playing and less miniatures combat.
5) There needs to be some way for characters to decide "I really want to succeed at this." How about something like 'Action Points' that give you a big bonus to do something or maybe let you re-roll failures. [Fate Points?]
A) Fights take too long. Usually I want shorter fights so that there is more time to do other things.
B) Fights take too long. Sometimes I want shorter fights so that I can have more of them.
2) PC's are always at 100% of their hit points the next day (barring disease). This shatters my suspension of disbelief.
3) The rules need to be better consolidated. No more rules where the definition of encumbered is on one page and the _effects_ of encumbered are 100 pages later.
4) A role playing game needs more role playing and less miniatures combat.
5) There needs to be some way for characters to decide "I really want to succeed at this." How about something like 'Action Points' that give you a big bonus to do something or maybe let you re-roll failures. [Fate Points?]
BryonD
Hero
I completely support the "unity" ideal they are promoting. But I think it would be completely silly to think anyone at WotC expects they will make everyone happy.
And anyone who is a huge fan of 4E as being near to their ideal needs to come to grips with the fact that WotC is not satisfied with their current fan base that this system cultivates. If they were this wouldn't be happening.
And that isn't to say I presume they will shift to my preferences. I'm far away from taking that for granted. And, moreso, I still think that WotC needs to protect their current at this minute fan base more than anything else.
But the bottom line is that a second generation version of the old style is kicking the new style in the teeth. That has WotC's attention.
They are not going to go through all this expense to cater to the people they could have by just staying with 4E. If you want them to focus on your preferences you should show some compromise and areas where you think D&D can appeal to other tastes and still give you what you want. Voting for things to not change is voting for something not even on the ballot.
Ahnehnois
First Post
Perhaps you should check out my 3e list. I don't dislike these things because they're different, I dislike them because they make it harder to play my game. Happy to discuss the issue elsewhere.
Balesir
Adventurer
Getting back to the original thread topic, here's my list of things 4E does not do well:
1) Feats: too many, not well organised/segregated (arguably there should be separate game elements for combat, exploration and social 'knacks') and with no apparent clarity on just how much bonus each should give (hence newer feats making older ones 'obsolete' by just being better in every way).
2) The existence of untyped bonuses for any non-situational element whatsoever.
3) The lack of systems as coherent and complete as that for combat, for exploration and social encounters.
4) The poor quality digital support, with diversions into overcontrolling, grabby nonsense just as the tools are starting to resemble something wothwhile.
5) The lack of openness in general - the removal of the OGL, the dictatorial approach to digital tools, refusal to sell digital versions not only of 4E, but of the older material as well. Wizards - focus more on providing the best product you can make, and less on dictating how the paying customers are "allowed" to use it.
In just about every other respect, I think 4E was the best version of D&D to date (and the best RPG on the market for high fantasy challenge- and player-driven story-based play).
1) Feats: too many, not well organised/segregated (arguably there should be separate game elements for combat, exploration and social 'knacks') and with no apparent clarity on just how much bonus each should give (hence newer feats making older ones 'obsolete' by just being better in every way).
2) The existence of untyped bonuses for any non-situational element whatsoever.
3) The lack of systems as coherent and complete as that for combat, for exploration and social encounters.
4) The poor quality digital support, with diversions into overcontrolling, grabby nonsense just as the tools are starting to resemble something wothwhile.
5) The lack of openness in general - the removal of the OGL, the dictatorial approach to digital tools, refusal to sell digital versions not only of 4E, but of the older material as well. Wizards - focus more on providing the best product you can make, and less on dictating how the paying customers are "allowed" to use it.
In just about every other respect, I think 4E was the best version of D&D to date (and the best RPG on the market for high fantasy challenge- and player-driven story-based play).
