Things I don't like about the 4E DMG - part 1 of 1000

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If you lie to preserve your story, are you now screwing your players out of an easy (but well-thought) victory?

If you tell the truth, your adventure goes form a long detailed mystery to basically two encounters (talk to corpse, go get the killer). Big adventure ruined.

These are not the only two options and the insidious little background thought here sets up this false dichotomy.

You can tell the truth and adapt your mystery.

It's not hard.

Improv does it one million times every day.

This is what "Don't get too attached to your plot" means. Your big adventure isn't ruined with some clever player questions. Rather, it is enhanced. If your big mystery is ruined with one question, it is up to you to give your players an interesting game despite that. Maybe it's not a mystery anymore -- maybe it's an action-packed battle. Maybe it's a massive assault. Maybe it's a dramatic war. It changes.

If you don't let the players change the adventure with their clever work, it is running on rails.

When the players might ruin your game with a well-placed question or a sudden crit, it is your job to adapt the game, not stop the player. The player gets to change the game. That's the nature of a shared narrative. It's not all up to you.
 

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My goodness. Are we still analyzing a single line from the DMG?

Ultimately, everyone who is arguing with me about the interpretation of the passage cannot contradict me that the passage says what I think it says - including you from what I read of your explanation. But you mask things like the "lying" in terms of more nebulous phrases to make it sound ok, and avoid having to address the facts.

The section I quoted was more than one line. It was even more than one sentence. I'm not interested in your player's profanity, that's a back-handed way of introducing a personal attack into this thread and has nothing to do with the substance. They should count things again, and remain civil when they don't understand stuff. And othewise I think you should keep their uninteresting behavior to yourself because it's against the rules of the message board AFAICT.
 

I actually went to read the ritual last night and found:

Yes, but the advice in the DMG doesn't say, IF the description isn't specific enough, THEN ability doesn't work. That would have been fine. Redundant, even.

The advice says, IF the result "would throw a monkey wrench in your plans for the adventure" THEN you can say "that the ritual failed to locate the intended target because the caster's description wasn't specific enough."

The only IF in that statement is that the DM's plans are thrown a monkey wrench. Period. No matter what else you'd like to insert in there, it is clearly not there in the actual quote. EDIT: And shall we please note that the quote doesn't even suggest that the choice must be between nerfing and allowing the adventure to be ruined before the THEN applies. All that is required is that the DM's plans be thrown a monkey wrench -- things will not proceed as he envisioned.

Can this advice be changed so that the advice becomes good advice? Sure. You can do that by changing either the IF conditions of the THEN result.

But the IF/THEN we are presented with is bad advice. Claiming that the advice is something other than it is doesn't make it any better advice. Acknowledging that it is bad advice, though, might lead to better advice in the DMG II....or III.


RC
 
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James is trying to say "In a conflict between the rules and making the game fun, go with the latter" Put another way "Don't let spells or rituals run amok in your game and ruin the fun".

No he says "throw a monkey wrench into YOUR plans". "You" being the DM. This has nothing, immediately, to do with ruining the fun. It's only a series of equivalencies that you create that does this. And if you think the DMs plans are identical with the fun of the session, then you're really saying that the DMs plans are the only real contribution to the fun of the session. You're also saying the DM can't improvise in any meaningful way. There are so many other things that the DM would have to do wrong to "ruin the session" that it wouldn't really be the player "ruining" it.
 

And I think you are sort of missing the point. The DM is told that once in a while, it's okay to do certain things to avoid ruining an adventure.

No! None of us have missed that point! :-) Those "certain things" things that you're talking about are lying. And bad DMing. So I think we all agree with your assessment here, it's just that your nebulous language conveniently side-steps the core issues.

So yes, if I completely ignore the *methods* that the DM uses and concentrate on his results, then all of the sudden things *do* seem more benign.

I mean, let's face it, not everyone comes equally prepared to every game. Not everyone has equal talent for DM'ing and thinking on his feet. So sometimes, a DM that is less prepared or less able to "wing it" might need to take other measures in order to preserve his adventure/campaign.

Other measures being...say it with me...lying and bad DMing! :-) Ok, obviously that's the point of contention. At least the "bad DMing" part. I think the "lying" part is ok with supporters of the passage in question. The other parts of the DMG itself make the case for why the proposed solution here is bad DMing.

And everyone who has a functioning brain can "think on their feet." The DM couldn't find his d20 otherwise. This is a question of the degree of control that you want, what is appropriate, and what you're willing to resort to in order to achieve that control.
 

The section I quoted was more than one line. It was even more than one sentence. I'm not interested in your player's profanity, that's a back-handed way of introducing a personal attack into this thread and has nothing to do with the substance. They should count things again, and remain civil when they don't understand stuff. And othewise I think you should keep their uninteresting behavior to yourself because it's against the rules of the message board AFAICT.

First, I know you aren't interested in their profanity, so I didn't use masked smileys or other silly ways to cover it up, I was simply stating that their reaction was not as mild or friendly as I put it. If you think it was a backhanded personal attack, you should probably ask yourself why you feel this way. I didn't direct their specific reaction to ANY of the individual posters.

Their comments are interesting to ME because I am their DM, their opinions matter. How are my friends comments -- to me --- against the rules of the message board?

Their comments are valid as anecdotal evidence that not everyone thinks that the paragraph fragment is a big deal or a clear cut statement that BadDM advice is being given, nor do they agree with your position. They have read the whole thread and their understanding of what is being discussed is perfectly clear. They didn't need to "remain civil" because they weren't posting on the boards (where, I might add, they are more civil than most others), they were talking among friends, and if they want to swear, they can.

Ok, then let me restate... are you still arguing over what amounts to a poorly worded bit of text that is less than a paragraph? We get it. The advice is poorly worded. It should have been clearer. You want to keep harping on lying and deceit and malicious intent.

Help me understand what you think the intent of the writers were. Let me ask this. Which of these do you believe, one or more:

It was the intent of James Wyatt (or whoever wrote this bit) to state..

1. that you should regularly lie to your players whenever you want your story to progress despite the players creative efforts?

2. that you should regularly nerf or squash your players plans whenever they use a game mechanic that could catch you unprepared?

3. that you should lie and say it was the players fault for not using the ritual right, and do this as often as you see fit.

4. that you should lie to your players and nerf their abilities this one time, but still blame it on the player for messing it up.

5. that, despite following the previous pages of advice, if you didn't plan your adventure accordingly, and if a the use of a ritual caught you off guard and it would ruin your entire adventure (either for just tonight or for the long term), that it's OK to interpret the results in a way that keeps the game going in a direction that you can offer the group the most fun?

I am curious what you thought they MEANT to state. If you know they meant no harm or meant no ill intent for the players, then why make a big deal out of this?
 

First, I know you aren't interested in their profanity, so I didn't use masked smileys or other silly ways to cover it up, I was simply stating that their reaction was not as mild or friendly as I put it. If you think it was a backhanded personal attack, you should probably ask yourself why you feel this way. I didn't direct their specific reaction to ANY of the individual posters.

Their comments are interesting to ME because I am their DM, their opinions matter. How are my friends comments -- to me --- against the rules of the message board?

Their comments are valid as anecdotal evidence that not everyone thinks that the paragraph fragment is a big deal or a clear cut statement that BadDM advice is being given, nor do they agree with your position. They have read the whole thread and their understanding of what is being discussed is perfectly clear. They didn't need to "remain civil" because they weren't posting on the boards (where, I might add, they are more civil than most others), they were talking among friends, and if they want to swear, they can.

Ok, then let me restate... are you still arguing over what amounts to a poorly worded bit of text that is less than a paragraph? We get it. The advice is poorly worded. It should have been clearer. You want to keep harping on lying and deceit and malicious intent.

Help me understand what you think the intent of the writers were. Let me ask this. Which of these do you believe, one or more:

It was the intent of James Wyatt (or whoever wrote this bit) to state..

1. that you should regularly lie to your players whenever you want your story to progress despite the players creative efforts?

2. that you should regularly nerf or squash your players plans whenever they use a game mechanic that could catch you unprepared?

3. that you should lie and say it was the players fault for not using the ritual right, and do this as often as you see fit.

4. that you should lie to your players and nerf their abilities this one time, but still blame it on the player for messing it up.

5. that, despite following the previous pages of advice, if you didn't plan your adventure accordingly, and if a the use of a ritual caught you off guard and it would ruin your entire adventure (either for just tonight or for the long term), that it's OK to interpret the results in a way that keeps the game going in a direction that you can offer the group the most fun?

I am curious what you thought they MEANT to state. If you know they meant no harm or meant no ill intent for the players, then why make a big deal out of this?


Seeing as how every DMG doesn't come packed with it's own JW to give the DM his "intent" it's about what is on the written page. In fact I would argue that seeing as how many people think it was either bad advice or wasn't worded well enough to convey anything but bad advice... I would say JW's intent, if it wasn't what is actually written, wasn't conveyed very well to at all through these words and thus it is still a passage of badly written advice.

EDIT: I'm curious, did your players tell you (some using profanity) how sillly it was that you were still participating in, and posting looong replies to a thread where we are still analyzing a single line from the DMG? I'm just curious?
 
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No! None of us have missed that point! :-) Those "certain things" things that you're talking about are lying. And bad DMing. So I think we all agree with your assessment here, it's just that your nebulous language conveniently side-steps the core issues.

So yes, if I completely ignore the *methods* that the DM uses and concentrate on his results, then all of the sudden things *do* seem more benign.



Other measures being...say it with me...lying and bad DMing! :-) Ok, obviously that's the point of contention. At least the "bad DMing" part. I think the "lying" part is ok with supporters of the passage in question. The other parts of the DMG itself make the case for why the proposed solution here is bad DMing.

And everyone who has a functioning brain can "think on their feet." The DM couldn't find his d20 otherwise. This is a question of the degree of control that you want, what is appropriate, and what you're willing to resort to in order to achieve that control.

I am fine with calling it a lie. I have no problem telling lies to my players if it benefits the story/adventure. I very rarely, if ever, do it, but that's another matter.

Also it's only bad DM'ing according to you. Apparently, Mr James Wyatt, Gary Gygax and at least me think it's okay to lie/cheat within the game once in a while. I am sure there are plenty more people out there that agree with us.

No one is saying that a DM should lie/cheat/nerf his players constantly and all the time. That would indeed be bad DM'ing. But doing it once in a while, that's okay. If needed. You seem to think that even a small lie given within the contest of a game is to be considered as a sin on par with God knows what, and I suspect that is part of the problem. We have a very different attitude towards such things.

Cheers
 

Their comments are valid as anecdotal evidence that not everyone thinks that the paragraph fragment is a big deal or a clear cut statement that BadDM advice is being given, nor do they agree with your position.

If I thought all people agreed with me, wouldn't this thread come as a surprise? Seriously, wouldn't your objections by themselves already prove the point you're stating here? Did I say that there were only 3 people that disagreed with me, and not 8? Not 9?

And a further irony is, what, theoretically, would stop you right now from completely lying about your motives for what you wrote about your friends? The reason the DM in example said what he said was NOT what he told the player. Why, as some anonymous person on a message board, would I be more entitled to honesty about your motives than the player in the example?

If I take you at your word about your intentions, your statements about your friends feelings are redundant. And I never intended to prove that the *aren't* players out there that don't mind being lied to.

Ok, then let me restate... are you still arguing over what amounts to a poorly worded bit of text that is less than a paragraph?

Not any more. I'm arguing now about what IMO are weak rationalizations for the aforementioned text. And that it wasn't poorly worded at all, but instead very obvious about what it was trying to communicate. Which is why you're defending it AFAICT. If what was written was "ahfasdlfj", why would you be defending it?

We get it. The advice is poorly worded. It should have been clearer. You want to keep harping on lying and deceit and malicious intent.

Actually, you don't seem to "get it". First of all, I don't don't agree that it was "poorly worded", unless that's what you mean when someone says something foolish - which is not what I think "poorly worded" means. The conditions established by Wyatt, and his proposed solution, were pretty clear.

"When a player says something out of character, hit him with a water balloon". That's not poorly worded. It's just foolish.

Secondly, harping is completely subjective. Why aren't you harping on my harping? That characterization obscures the real issues. No one is forcing you to read or write anything.

Thirdly, "malicious intent" is not the issue. The intent of the DM, as I think we all agree, is to protect his plot, and preserve the "fun" of the game.

Help me understand what you think the intent of the writers were.

I think you need to make a distinction between intent and consequences. If you keep mixing those up, you won't understand what I'm trying to say.

For example: If someone is going to drive to work at 150 mph down the highway, and I say "they're going to kill someone". You arguing about the fact that they didn't *intend* to, and are only trying to get to work quickly, is missing the point. And if you're so hung up about getting to work on time, that you can't set your alarm, and have no respect for anyone else on the road, and think it's your "right" to act however you want to solve your immediate problem because "your intentions are good", then you are largely missing the point of what I'm saying.

Let me ask this. Which of these do you believe, one or more:

It was the intent of James Wyatt (or whoever wrote this bit) to state..

1. that you should regularly lie to your players whenever you want your story to progress despite the players creative efforts?

Strictly speaking, Wyatt said it was ok to lie to them when the conditions that he established existed. If A then do B. Whether or not A is a regular occurance in your campaign is something I don't know.

Also "regularly" depends on the context. I regularly breathe. Also regularly sleep. In a campaign with interesting things going on frequently, I think the DM is going to be confronted with the unknown pretty regularly.

2. that you should regularly nerf or squash your players plans whenever they use a game mechanic that could catch you unprepared?

He didn't say anything about the player's *plans*. The player had his character do something, and the DMs adjucation of the action had *nothing* to do with either the rules or the definition of "DMing" that was established in the PHB, or the advice on "good DMing" that was described in other sections of the DMG. The player's action may, or may not have been part of a "plan" - doesn't really matter to what I'm saying.

3. that you should lie and say it was the players fault for not using the ritual right, and do this as often as you see fit.

Yes, there were no limitations put on this action by Wyatt. "If the player is going to throw a monkey wrench into your plans, do this." That's pretty much as "often as you see fit." I'm not arguing that Wyatt is suggesting that you lie to your players for no reason.

4. that you should lie to your players and nerf their abilities this one time, but still blame it on the player for messing it up.

No, not "this one time". There's nothing in the conditions established that makes the DMs response less likely in the future. Nothing that makes this situation a unique occurence over the entire career of the DM. In fact, the conditions are sufficiently broad enough that, as other's have pointed out, they could equally apply to the PCs rolling a bunch of criticals against a BBEG that "throws a monkey wrench into your plan".

5. that, despite following the previous pages of advice, if you didn't plan your adventure accordingly, and if a the use of a ritual caught you off guard and it would ruin your entire adventure (either for just tonight or for the long term), that it's OK to interpret the results in a way that keeps the game going in a direction that you can offer the group the most fun?

But that really begs the question - because if you HAD been paying attention to the other advice, the actual premise that the DMs plans are the sole definition of what is "fun" is bogus. The idea that the DM needs to stick to plans conceived a month ago is bogus. There's so much that's bogus about the very premise that's used to rationalize this recommended action.

I am curious what you thought they MEANT to state. If you know they meant no harm or meant no ill intent for the players, then why make a big deal out of this?

For the same reason that my driving late to work analogy describes. In fact, if all you need to do is INTEND to do good then there is no reason for advice in the DMG, right? I think we all agree that the DMs intentions were to protect his "plot". He didn't intend to disrespect the players. That doesn't make what he did ok. This is Ethics 101 and is a logical point.
 

Which I must agree is generally better advice all around. If you cast Observe Creature on Duke Dunderhead, the ritual better work unless you have a lot of dukes with that surname. If you cast it on the "head of the cult of Orcus" the DM should be able to slam you with non-specifics.

No, actually, the ritual won't work if there are counter-magics in place. Not only the Forbiddance spell, but it is in the spirit of the rules that other rituals/powers/conditions, invented by the DM, splatbooks he uses, etc. exist that can thwart this power.

But your example is completely reasonable and is an example of a fair interpretation of the ritual (barring some of the details). I don't think anyone, including myself, is arguing that the DM has to let the ritual work *in spite* of the rules. In fact, that's about as obnoxious as the DMG advice in question.
 

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