things i like/dislike about PHB2 - a sort of review

[Wardo]

Which feats would that be? I did a search in PHB/PHB2/MP and found no other feats that give feat bonuses to your to hit roll.

Hellfire blood to start. Searching the compendium for this was not as easy as I thought it would be.

 

[Jack99]

Hellfire blood to start. Searching the compendium for this was not as easy as I thought it would be.

Correct. My search-fu is apparently not perfect. I just ran it again, and didn't get any other to show up.

Any other? One doesn't make "several other". Also, can anyone figure out why it couldn't be a untyped bonus (Hellfire Blood)? I am unearthly hung over and find it hard to focus right now.

 

[Obryn]

The double-expertise stacking "abuse" is something that I honestly wonder if they just didn't think about, or if they think it's ok to shore up unpopular weapons that way. I think if they quickly errata it, we'll know it was the former; otherwise I guess it's the latter.

I think it's more like, "Nobody could possibly think that allowing rules abuse like this is a good idea, so you pile on your infinite oregano, and we'll play D&D."

-O

 

[Obryn]

heh. I just can't shake my natural inclination to "realism/simulationism". It gives me a hard time with 4e sometimes

My thought experiment was to keep fists == daggers, but they could still use other simple weapons easily (e.g. staff). Daggers are OK for rogues (albeit as instruments for more easily landing their sneak attack damage), I think it could be interesting here.

Cheers

It certainly could be! I think it would hinder them too much, though. Essentially an Avenger who uses an actual weapon, and an avenger whose fists do exactly the same damage as a weapon, are identical in game terms. Like I said, it's a reskin more than anything.

-O

 

[evilbob]

Maybe the best fix is a "feat bonus" fix - and then you can just change Hellfire Blood to an unnamed bonus and any other feats you come across like that.

I'm honestly not even sure why something like Hellfire Blood is a feat bonus when something like Nimble Blade is untyped...

 

[gribble]

The double weapon thing (as others have pointed out) is obviously what I was referring to.

Any other? One doesn't make "several other". Also, can anyone figure out why it couldn't be a untyped bonus (Hellfire Blood)?

Hadn't noticed that Hellfire Blood is the only typed bonus to hit in the PHB. Makes me wonder why they didn't just errata HB and make Expertise a feat bonus...

I think the following statements can all be reasonably made:
1) By the RAW, the bonus given by Expertise stacks for weapons that belong to 2 groups.
2) It's unclear whether that was WotCs intent, but seems unlikely and given that they've already screwed up these types of weapons in the past (see double sword), it was probably an oversight.
3) Any sane DM who is able to do so will rule that Expertise doesn't stack with itself. I pity the poor RPGA DMs, who already have to put up with all the double sword cheese...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Correct. My search-fu is apparently not perfect. I just ran it again, and didn't get any other to show up.

Any other? One doesn't make "several other". Also, can anyone figure out why it couldn't be a untyped bonus (Hellfire Blood)? I am unearthly hung over and find it hard to focus right now.

Nimble blade is the other - +1 to hit with light blades if you have combat advantage (thus completely overshadowed in every way by weapon expertise, which isn't limited by weapon type, or by circumstances, or to +1!)

Cheers

 

[gribble]

Nimble blade is the other

While Expertise is better than Nimble Blade in every way, and does completely overshadow it, it doesn't obselete it because they can stack.

Surprisingly though, Nimble Blade isn't a feat bonus, so would have stacked with Expertise if it had been a feat bonus...

 

[Cadfan]

The rules lawyering logic for not stacking works like this:

Bonuses stack, unless they're typed bonuses of the same type, except that nothing stacks with itself. When you take Weapon Expertise twice, you are taking the same feat two times. You cannot stack the same feat with itself. You aren't taking Weapon Expertise A and Weapon Expertise B, each of which are different feats. You have Weapon Expertise and Weapon Expertise, and you cannot add them together because you cannot stack the same thing with itself.

 

[gribble]

The rules lawyering logic for not stacking works like this:

Bonuses stack, unless they're typed bonuses of the same type, except that nothing stacks with itself. When you take Weapon Expertise twice, you are taking the same feat two times. You cannot stack the same feat with itself. You aren't taking Weapon Expertise A and Weapon Expertise B, each of which are different feats. You have Weapon Expertise and Weapon Expertise, and you cannot add them together because you cannot stack the same thing with itself.

Except that there is no rule which states what you claim in the bits I bolded above... see PHB p275.