Things I Miss....

[jbear]

When I run d20 the only use we have for books is players looking up spells. We never have to look up much of the other stuff. But that is not as important to this discussion.

What the other poster is forgetting is those table did not have to be looked up in books as they were mostly on the DM screen. And they were table the DM used not the player. The player had very little reason to look up anything. Well, spells mostly that hasn't changed.

So, that's really what I miss. The DM screen with all of these table on it that makes the game unique. When I ran 1e at Gen Con last year a good friend purposely tracked down a screen for me for this very reason.

Hehe, no, I'm not forgetting. I never had a DM screen. "Unaware of" would be more accurate.

 

[Crothian]

I'm happy to tangent since you seem to want to.

have memorized the specifics of running a charge

Most combat maneuvers once they get used once or twice people should learn them. I also tell my players that if they are planning to use any of the special maneuver abilities they should learn them before they come to the first session. While playing a system does help there is no reason people can't learn the rules for their own character prior to playing the game.

or all the prerequisites for the Feats you use in your game

Feat requirements don't matter in game. I can honestly say in the over a decade I've played 3e I've never seen it come up and I'm not sure in what rare instance it would.

or the particulars of a race, a class ability

These should be on the character sheet or known before hand. People need to be responsibility for the abilities of their own characters. If you can't be bothered to learn how sneak attack works for instance then why play a rouge?

It takes some playing a while to get over that learning curve.

All it takes a commitment to learn the rules. Playing the game while it helps is not the right answer. I know and have meet people at cons who have played games for many years and still don't know how to play their character. One has to read the books and be willing to learn the rules. If you aren't willing to do that then just playing the game is not going to get you there if you aren't willing to learn.

 

[Water Bob]

I'm happy to tangent since you seem to want to.

Threads always drift. I expect it.

All it takes a commitment to learn the rules.

Well, that's my point. There are A LOT of rules in D&D. I dunno about 4E, but I suspect all versions are rules heavy even though some may be lighter than others.

"Hey! What's the difference between the Bull's Charge and the Charge again?"

If you don't play with that often, you have to look it up.

Which is why I find it hard to believe anybody can play D&D without opening the books during a game session unless the DM has been playing a long time and has everything memorized.

I know I used to have most of it memorized back in the day when I was playing 1E and 2E, but I'm out of practice now. And, 3E is, although we've been playing a while, still new to us (me and my group).

 

[Water Bob]

Back on-topic, what about the "space required" stat that they took off of weapon charts. I think only 1E has this.

I miss that. It sure made it easy to figure if you could use a weapon inside a tavern, in a tight space in a cavern, or when your buddy was side-by-side with you in a 10 foot corridor.

 

[Dedekind]

A few days ago, I wouldn't have agreed with most of this. But then I played Gammaworld for the first time and had to deal with all the randomness. It was very nostalgic!

 

[scourger]

A few days ago, I wouldn't have agreed with most of this. But then I played Gammaworld for the first time and had to deal with all the randomness. It was very nostalgic!

Ironically, we just discussed last week that it is the randomness that one of my players likes least about Gamma World and all games in that genre. He loves building a character. Even I identified the lack of character development as a relative weakness of Gamma World for playing a game longer than a couple of sessions. We're doing it anyway, but a little more player choice would help that aspect of the game.

 

[pukunui]

I've just identified that a lack of randomness is what is causing me to be dissatisfied with my current Star Wars game. I've come to realize that by streamlining the game, the d20 system has made things like combat too predictable and "safe". It's just not exciting for me anymore. You have to have a feat or a talent or whatever just to be able to try some of the zanier things - and those things that you are allowed to try untrained come with hefty numerical penalties attached (usually -5 or -10), which just puts people off from trying them. And so combat ends up becoming a drag with no one ever doing anything interesting. Everyone just stands there going "I attack and deal damage" or "I attack. Oh crap, I missed." Or whatever.

I had a blast a few sessions ago with a pair of martial artist twins who had complementary abilities. I'd given one some feats so she could grab two adjacent opponents and bang their heads together, and I'd given her sister abilities that let her push, trip and throw her enemies so she could maneuver them into her sister's reach. That was so much more fun than if I'd just had them both pull out blasters and start shooting. But the thing is: you have to invest in those sorts of abilities in order to be able to do that sort of thing in a d20 game, and my players seem to have zero interest in investing in some of the more "out there" abilities. They seem to be happy with just "I attack and deal damage" type stuff.

Anyway ... so as I said before, what I miss most is all the random little flourishes that I seem to recall being in older games. D20 combat is just too "safe" and boring without them.

 

[the Jester]

I miss variable critical ranges and multipliers.

I miss a lot of the random elements- rolling hit points, though not at first level (and stats, in games that demand you use point buy), etc.

I miss the "fragile 1st level" feeling.

I miss getting through five combats in an hour.

I miss "no assumed wealth per level" as a concept.

 

[Water Bob]

Even I identified the lack of character development as a relative weakness of Gamma World for playing a game longer than a couple of sessions.

Wow. I find that games with random generation lend themselves to more character than less. With a point buy system, people always have the best fighter that they can have, the best mage, the best thief, and so on.

Man, you roll random, especially hard-core random stats where there is no arrangement to taste (like the base chargen system in 1E), and you have to discover the character.

I usually find these to be the strongest, most interesting characters because the player, who originaly thought he'd play a fighter, is not figuring why life turn a right turn for his toon, sending him down the path of being a cleric.

I like random stats, especially hard core random stats, because an STR 18 is something "special" that you definitely don't see all the time.

And, in my past games, some of the neatest characters were those with low stats in certain areas that the player embraced and characterized for his toon. I understand that the reason Raistlin, in the Dragonlance novels, talks with a raspy voice and drinks potions all came about with a random roll, making the playtested Raistlin have a low CON. So, the original playtester of Raistlin (I forgot who it was, but a "name" at TSR) actually built a strong, memorable character trait because of a low or mediocre CON throw.

You don't usually get that kind of thing when players use point-buy or have chargen system where all their stats are "decent-to-high", and the guy is a hero from every angle you look at him.

I miss a lot of the random elements- rolling hit points, though not at first level (and stats, in games that demand you use point buy), etc.

You don't roll hit points at level 2+?

I miss "no assumed wealth per level" as a concept.

Educate me on what you're talking about here.

 

[Water Bob]

I miss...

When Thieves were called "Thieves", not "Rogues". That changed with 2E.

What I really miss?????

One word...

Assassins.