Thinking About the Purpose of Mechanics from a Neo-Trad Perspective

gorice

Hero
Interesting thread!

First, the fly in the ointment: I have to agree with @Whizbang Dustyboots. This is probably my third time reading that essay, and every time I do, I like it less. For one thing, I'm no expert on the subject, but if you're going to talk about cultures, it seems important to define them by their practices and account for how they are transmitted. Or, alternately, any consistent standard. Otherwise, actual play cultures, RPG theory, subcultural identifiers (like OSR or story gaming), and astroturfed cultures created by products or branding (trad, and again OSR and PBTA) all get lumped together in a way that doesn't tell us much about what's actually happening. That's before we get to the fact that the author clearly has an animus against what they call 'story games', which leads to the conflation of various indie RPG cultures with Forge theory and the misrepresentation of them all. In short: the 'six cultures of play' schema tells us a lot about received wisdom within online RPG discourse, and nothing at all about actual cultures of play.

Case in point: I've seen all of the behaviors labelled 'neotrad' in play, but I'm not sure what to make of them. I refuse to believe that CharOp theorycrafting and freeform roleplay have much in common, except as a convenient schematic bucket. @The-Magic-Sword gives a much richer and more useful description of an actual culture of play (and thanks for that!).

Adding to the confusion, it seems to me that a culture of play, the individual participants' goals for play, and the particular rules used in a given instance are all distinct variables.

I think you're right in that I should have made the fact that those two concepts were different clearer, to me, they came together under what you outline as their commonality of premeditation. I've also noticed that you can get tension if they get it too fast and then the player has to figure out "Ok wait, where do they go from here since I thought that once X happened their story is pretty much over" which is actually something specific one of my most ardently neotrad (my label not theirs) players feels about most characters in stories-- they have their one arc that consists of the growth they were meant to have and then that's it, they live happily ever after aside from helping out. They've also rather candidly told me that they prefer stories where the GM ties together the background antagonists created by the players into one (loosely or otherwise) enemy faction so that the arc isn't fully resolved until the campaign ends all at once.
I've encountered this kind of thing as a GM. Personally, I'm not a fan (and I don't much like doing what I once heard someone call 'service top GMing'), but I do wonder what is going on here. I understand the pleasure of inhabiting a character. I completely understand feeling that a character is done and needs to be retired. What I don't get, is planning an arc for that character and then merely inhabiting them as they go along. I'd be tempted to write it off as a degenerate form of play (a sort of reverse railroading, or 'story now' play that never gets going because the player can't play in the moment), but maybe there's something I'm missing.
 

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The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
I've encountered this kind of thing as a GM. Personally, I'm not a fan (and I don't much like doing what I once heard someone call 'service top GMing'), but I do wonder what is going on here. I understand the pleasure of inhabiting a character. I completely understand feeling that a character is done and needs to be retired. What I don't get, is planning an arc for that character and then merely inhabiting them as they go along. I'd be tempted to write it off as a degenerate form of play (a sort of reverse railroading, or 'story now' play that never gets going because the player can't play in the moment), but maybe there's something I'm missing.
Avoiding getting too caught up in the semantics and categorization, but I wanted to touch on this, the thing about degenerate forms of play is that they sort of suggest an intrinsic value judgement that comes from somewhere (it's actually a really unfortunate term, given the concept of degenerate art, though I know that it disclaims some of the connotations as a technical term and instead alludes to the idea of degenerating from a specific goal) about what play is for, which is the goal from which it can be understood to degenerate.

I think the missing thing you allude to is the role that storytelling plays from a comforting perspective, there is a desire in storytelling to see certain stories play out time and time again, to see heroes win, bad guys banish, and certain morals win out, or see someone we identify with get their happy ending, even if they have to work for it somewhat. Knowing what I do about the player's life (and this is something they've agreed with) it's not shocking to me that the comfort food motivator is present, I've also known other people who have the opposite association: they want horror and misery and desperation because they feel like life is damn boring, and they want to take on the role of someone who is bound for collapse, or even to work out something as a kind of creative self-therapy, confronting a difficult father figure through the lens of a druid and her disappointed wizard father.

It's not hard to imagine, when you consider the appeal of linear JRPGs or other forms of linear storytelling, you still get to be much more creative in the execution and even construction of scenes, you still have to work for it in the form of tactical decisions and fireballs, you even make choices about where to go along the way that have consequences that play out on the journey to your ultimate known destination, and while sometimes there's tension, the other player characters can provide a source of uncertainty as your arc intersects with theirs.
 
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The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
Honestly, my problem may be as much chronological as anything else. By the standards they seem to be using, I saw a lot of people attempting what they call Trad really early, but you can argue that in most cases they didn't have the tools for the job; the combination of uncovered ground and random character generation wasn't as kind as it could be here in the earliest games.



Yeah, I'd tend to agree. There's nothing wrong with using it as a framework even if I don't think I fit neatly into any of their categories.
This really is something that shows up with literary movements too, you have authors who in retrospect were doing things that would become the norm even centuries before the movement actually seems to take place, when that happens we just talk about them in those terms, alluding to them as proto, comparing them to the movement in question, and so forth. The movement or culture in question just becomes a crystalization of the style and a touchstone for an era in which it really blew up and got a lot of material that was intertextual (hence the internet era as being so vital to the discussion of neo-traditional play, you had this massive burst of everyone having a platform to both use and share their OCs.)

For instance, you could argue that the multi-story nature, iconicness, and differing-but-valid philosophies of the companions of the lance are delving into neotrad territory, and I think if you were reading that in the late 80s through the 90s it may have influenced you to create characters in that vein (realistically it did mine in the 2000s well after the publication of most of what I was reading), similarly I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen with the tables that handwaved characters into better survivability as far back as the 70s as their favorite characters went between disconnected modules at different tables and the main continuity for them would have to be a matter of invention-- you can see a sneaky version of it emerge in games that make former characters important parts of the campaign setting, specifically as players elaborate on their post-table careers, turning adventurers into proper kings with fiction that sharply ties their story together.
 

Pedantic

Legend
I think the missing thing you allude to is the role that storytelling plays from a comforting perspective, there is a desire in storytelling to see certain stories play out time and time again, to see heroes win, bad guys banish, and certain morals win out, or see someone we identify with get their happy ending, even if they have to work for it somewhat. Knowing what I do about the player's life (and this is something they've agreed with) it's not shocking to me that the comfort food motivator is present, I've also known other people who have the opposite association: they want horror and misery and desperation because they feel like life is damn boring, and they want to take on the role of someone who is bound for collapse, or even to work out something as a kind of creative self-therapy, confronting a difficult father figure through the lens of a druid and her disappointed wizard father.

It's not hard to imagine, when you consider the appeal of linear JRPGs or other forms of linear storytelling, you still get to be much more creative in the execution and even construction of scenes, you still have to work for it in the form of tactical decisions and fireballs, you even make choices about where to go along the way that have consequences that play out on the journey to your ultimate known destination, and while sometimes there's tension, the other player characters can provide a source of uncertainty as your arc intersects with theirs.

I think it's also worth pointing out that some players who are looking for character growth might have a problem statement but not a solution. "My character murdered their sister while dominated, and needs to resolve that trauma" could lead to say, getting revenge on the responsible party and correctly placing the blame and pain on them, or maybe the character passes a few impressive checks against mental control later, and the player takes that a sign the character is developing an iron will so this can never happen again, or maybe the character gets a perfect counterspell off against a charm spell later and resolves the tension with knowledge/understanding of the powers that compelled them earlier.

All of those could be an acceptable outcome to a player who's set up that problem for resolution and might lead to slightly different places. In fact, the player may not even want to know who the antagonist who put them in that position in the first place is, and may expect the GM to work that open thread into something that ties together the stories of the other characters. We should be careful of considering the stories of players looking for this sort of pay off as completely prescribed. Instead, they've set up specific beats they want to hit and specific questions that need to be answered, but are open to a variety of answers and a variety of routes to get to those places.
 

Pedantic

Legend
I've had a thought about the primacy of "character" in this context that I think merits some exploration. I don't want to say this is a strictly modern storytelling tradition, but you see this a lot in fan-fiction communities, where characters have a certain intrinsic value, derived from properties that are relatively unchanging. The easiest example is probably just shipping culture, which is very focused on "I want to see Character X and Character Y in this specific, other situation."

This style has a certain essentialist view of what a character is that can drive conflict with other agendas. A character is a discrete, specific entity with (some, but not all) traits that do not change. These traits might be portrayed as the results of events in the past, and be altered slightly by ongoing story events in future, but they are essential. Traits that can/will change are usually flagged, and are planned as significant drivers of the plot. There is a fundamental divide between characters and plots: characters experience plots, they can be put into situations and react to them, but they are never defined by them. You can remove the character from the story, and bring them over to another one, you could portray the same character twice, in two different campaigns and point to them at the end of both and say "this is the same person."

This view of a character as dominant over situation is, I think, the fundamental point of differentiation that makes it clear this is a unique style from both Trad and Story Now agendas. A Trad character (in so much as "character" conceptually is important to a Trad player) really only exists in reference to the plot, and is expected to be an amalgamation of the events they experienced, even if they had personality elements they brought to those interactions, while a Story Now character is expected to struggle against their environment and learn/grow continuously in reaction to events. The former exists only in retrospect and is never complete and the latter is constantly in a state of reaction/discovery as things happen that force growth/change on them. A Neo-Trad character is intrinsically complete from conception, including opportunities to grow/learn that are already templated/scripted in from the outset.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Avoiding getting too caught up in the semantics and categorization, but I wanted to touch on this, the thing about degenerate forms of play is that they sort of suggest an intrinsic value judgement that comes from somewhere (it's actually a really unfortunate term, given the concept of degenerate art, though I know that it disclaims some of the connotations as a technical term and instead alludes to the idea of degenerating from a specific goal) about what play is for, which is the goal from which it can be understood to degenerate.

For what its worth, when I use a term like "degenerate cases" I'm specifically referring to things in a particular methodology that have either taken the purpose so far they've lost the forest for the trees, or have become so monomaniacal in the pursuit of it that they ignore everything else, no matter how important.

The classic examples are either power-gaming-over-all or "I'm only playing my character"; besides being, at best, monomaniacal in their pursuit of one thing (in-game personal power in the first case, characterization/roleplay in the second) they tend to ignore everything about the context of the game they're in and the consequences of that monomaniacal play. They aren't a critique of that purpose, but a critique of being so focused on it that you lose the thread of where you're exercising that focus in a social sense.

I think the missing thing you allude to is the role that storytelling plays from a comforting perspective, there is a desire in storytelling to see certain stories play out time and time again, to see heroes win, bad guys banish, and certain morals win out, or see someone we identify with get their happy ending, even if they have to work for it somewhat. Knowing what I do about the player's life (and this is something they've agreed with) it's not shocking to me that the comfort food motivator is present, I've also known other people who have the opposite association: they want horror and misery and desperation because they feel like life is damn boring, and they want to take on the role of someone who is bound for collapse, or even to work out something as a kind of creative self-therapy, confronting a difficult father figure through the lens of a druid and her disappointed wizard father.

Yeah, there's a place for exploring really dark parts of fiction in RPGs, but I think it often works against what I might think of as the palliative urge a lot of people have when gaming. Sometimes, of course, people are distant enough from their characters that it doesn't matter enormously if other people are visiting those dark places, but in general I think in a lot of cases it can still end up leaving a bad taste for people who don't lean into that sort of thing.

It's not hard to imagine, when you consider the appeal of linear JRPGs or other forms of linear storytelling, you still get to be much more creative in the execution and even construction of scenes, you still have to work for it in the form of tactical decisions and fireballs, you even make choices about where to go along the way that have consequences that play out on the journey to your ultimate known destination, and while sometimes there's tension, the other player characters can provide a source of uncertainty as your arc intersects with theirs.

I'm playing through my second PF2e Adventure Path right now, and while I can say that its far more linear than my natural preferences, but I still enjoy the tactical decisions and the opportunity to play out Jenesa's "I come across as a complete ditz but its a defense mechanism so people don't realize how smart I am and expect too much of me", as I previously did Kedric's "I'm kind of a party boy, but I'm also out here to make the world a better place even at the price of my own safety" thing. I just don't dig into them quite as much as I might in a game that had a little more elbow room.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
I've had a thought about the primacy of "character" in this context that I think merits some exploration. I don't want to say this is a strictly modern storytelling tradition, but you see this a lot in fan-fiction communities, where characters have a certain intrinsic value, derived from properties that are relatively unchanging. The easiest example is probably just shipping culture, which is very focused on "I want to see Character X and Character Y in this specific, other situation."

This style has a certain essentialist view of what a character is that can drive conflict with other agendas. A character is a discrete, specific entity with (some, but not all) traits that do not change. These traits might be portrayed as the results of events in the past, and be altered slightly by ongoing story events in future, but they are essential. Traits that can/will change are usually flagged, and are planned as significant drivers of the plot. There is a fundamental divide between characters and plots: characters experience plots, they can be put into situations and react to them, but they are never defined by them. You can remove the character from the story, and bring them over to another one, you could portray the same character twice, in two different campaigns and point to them at the end of both and say "this is the same person."

This view of a character as dominant over situation is, I think, the fundamental point of differentiation that makes it clear this is a unique style from both Trad and Story Now agendas. A Trad character (in so much as "character" conceptually is important to a Trad player) really only exists in reference to the plot, and is expected to be an amalgamation of the events they experienced, even if they had personality elements they brought to those interactions, while a Story Now character is expected to struggle against their environment and learn/grow continuously in reaction to events. The former exists only in retrospect and is never complete and the latter is constantly in a state of reaction/discovery as things happen that force growth/change on them. A Neo-Trad character is intrinsically complete from conception, including opportunities to grow/learn that are already templated/scripted in from the outset.
Yup! This description I think captures a lot of the essence of the mindset, and I think the earlier reference of problem statements rather than complete arcs intersects well with this-- the baggage that the character carries around with them defines their story as much or more than the external plot they find themselves in. Interestingly, this makes the story a collage of different story arcs playing out based off who you drop into it. It reminds me a lot of middle Star Trek where you could perhaps imagine the likes of Tom Paris, B'Elanna Torres, Seven of Nine, or the Doctor having their arcs on DS9 as easily as on Voyager, because their character arcs are very distinct from the central arcs of those shows (but you couldn't do the same thing with the likes of Janeway or Sisko or Kira because they're too intermingled into the core plot.)

Similarly, these characters have the capacity to be entertaining even without the plot, and we're starting to see more manifestations of that outside of the tabletop space as well-- the very popular Slime Isekai (a story about a dude who reincarnates into a fantasy world as a cute little ooze) has a full length spin off series that exists entirely to tell stories about the characters that are removed from the plot (skipping along to different moments in the plot where time would be passing un-depicted to do it) literally slice of life stuff about throwing parties, character relationships, people working through trauma, things like that. People who get really invested in their character in Dragon Age love to discuss how "Their Hawke took Fenris and Isabella and moved to the coast, adopted cats and tries to live a quiet life" or something.
 

gorice

Hero
Avoiding getting too caught up in the semantics and categorization, but I wanted to touch on this, the thing about degenerate forms of play is that they sort of suggest an intrinsic value judgement that comes from somewhere (it's actually a really unfortunate term, given the concept of degenerate art, though I know that it disclaims some of the connotations as a technical term and instead alludes to the idea of degenerating from a specific goal) about what play is for, which is the goal from which it can be understood to degenerate.

I think the missing thing you allude to is the role that storytelling plays from a comforting perspective, there is a desire in storytelling to see certain stories play out time and time again, to see heroes win, bad guys banish, and certain morals win out, or see someone we identify with get their happy ending, even if they have to work for it somewhat. Knowing what I do about the player's life (and this is something they've agreed with) it's not shocking to me that the comfort food motivator is present, I've also known other people who have the opposite association: they want horror and misery and desperation because they feel like life is damn boring, and they want to take on the role of someone who is bound for collapse, or even to work out something as a kind of creative self-therapy, confronting a difficult father figure through the lens of a druid and her disappointed wizard father.

It's not hard to imagine, when you consider the appeal of linear JRPGs or other forms of linear storytelling, you still get to be much more creative in the execution and even construction of scenes, you still have to work for it in the form of tactical decisions and fireballs, you even make choices about where to go along the way that have consequences that play out on the journey to your ultimate known destination, and while sometimes there's tension, the other player characters can provide a source of uncertainty as your arc intersects with theirs.
Let's put aside the term 'degenerate', since it is a bit fraught (I meant it in the technical sense, but never mind). I think the key bit is in your last paragraph, on the role of uncertainty. Let me quote your example of play from the original post:

User A: Jackie was leaning up against the castle wall with a book in his hand, occasionally glancing up to check who was walking by. He had a large and volumous mustache, a breastplate emblazoned with the colors of House Tolumane, and a sword hung at his side.

User B: Marissa pauses in her stroll through the gardens seeing Jackie, after catching his eye, she raises her hand in greeting "Hello Jackie!" she says "I'm on my way to the Garden to talk to Samuel about that spell he was working on, would you like to accompany me?"

User A: "Sure!" Jackie moves to accompany Marissa, he lifts his arm as if to offer it to her, but then shrugs weakly and looks off to the side instead, rubbing the arm with his other hand.

User B: Marissa smiles sadly and she wonders if things between them would ever be the same again. The two of them walk for a minute or two in the Gardens until they spot Samuel and she calls out to him as they approach.

User C: Samuel is on his hands and knees, with a pair of Garden sheers, trimming the roses bushes, as the two of them approach he...
First of all, this is great and really interesting (not that it needs my endorsement). Players are effectively setting the scene and making statements about other people's characters (as in the Jackie/Marissa relationship -- were there limits to how much you could do this? Was it established beforehand? Do you still do it in other games?).

Anyway: if everyone has control (mostly) over their own characters, and they make statements in turn, and the players are actually paying attention as building on each others' statments (as in your example)... It looks to me as if play would inevitably throw up some unexpected situations, and test/reveal characters in ways that weren't planned. Does this fit with your experience?

I think it's also worth pointing out that some players who are looking for character growth might have a problem statement but not a solution. "My character murdered their sister while dominated, and needs to resolve that trauma" could lead to say, getting revenge on the responsible party and correctly placing the blame and pain on them, or maybe the character passes a few impressive checks against mental control later, and the player takes that a sign the character is developing an iron will so this can never happen again, or maybe the character gets a perfect counterspell off against a charm spell later and resolves the tension with knowledge/understanding of the powers that compelled them earlier.

All of those could be an acceptable outcome to a player who's set up that problem for resolution and might lead to slightly different places. In fact, the player may not even want to know who the antagonist who put them in that position in the first place is, and may expect the GM to work that open thread into something that ties together the stories of the other characters. We should be careful of considering the stories of players looking for this sort of pay off as completely prescribed. Instead, they've set up specific beats they want to hit and specific questions that need to be answered, but are open to a variety of answers and a variety of routes to get to those places.
Right! This is what triggered my 'degenerate' comment before. A problem statement is just classic storytelling. Leaving it open looks like old-fashioned 'story now' play. My character has this big issue, let's find out how they deal with it. If you write the answer in stone before you even get there, what then?

I've had a thought about the primacy of "character" in this context that I think merits some exploration. I don't want to say this is a strictly modern storytelling tradition, but you see this a lot in fan-fiction communities, where characters have a certain intrinsic value, derived from properties that are relatively unchanging. The easiest example is probably just shipping culture, which is very focused on "I want to see Character X and Character Y in this specific, other situation."

This style has a certain essentialist view of what a character is that can drive conflict with other agendas. A character is a discrete, specific entity with (some, but not all) traits that do not change. These traits might be portrayed as the results of events in the past, and be altered slightly by ongoing story events in future, but they are essential. Traits that can/will change are usually flagged, and are planned as significant drivers of the plot. There is a fundamental divide between characters and plots: characters experience plots, they can be put into situations and react to them, but they are never defined by them. You can remove the character from the story, and bring them over to another one, you could portray the same character twice, in two different campaigns and point to them at the end of both and say "this is the same person."

This view of a character as dominant over situation is, I think, the fundamental point of differentiation that makes it clear this is a unique style from both Trad and Story Now agendas. A Trad character (in so much as "character" conceptually is important to a Trad player) really only exists in reference to the plot, and is expected to be an amalgamation of the events they experienced, even if they had personality elements they brought to those interactions, while a Story Now character is expected to struggle against their environment and learn/grow continuously in reaction to events. The former exists only in retrospect and is never complete and the latter is constantly in a state of reaction/discovery as things happen that force growth/change on them. A Neo-Trad character is intrinsically complete from conception, including opportunities to grow/learn that are already templated/scripted in from the outset.
From my end, it looks like we're dealing with different but intersecting axes, here. Like, the trad character typically doesn't change much, while the story now character is expected to be challenged (though they may not actually change much). That's one axis. Both types can bring a lot or a little backstory. That's another axis.

I think in both cases (but especially story now), turning the backstory up to eleven makes it hard to actually play the character, for the same reason it's hard to play in a setting with too much detail. If everything is already decided, anything I or anyone else does at the table risks contradicting the truth that is already established. This is why I look at these characters with detailed backstories and carefully planned arcs and wonder whether they are actually fun to play, or even possible to play at all, as written.

When I look at the example of freeform roleplay given by @The-Magic-Sword , it seems to me that you couldn't actually plan detailed character arcs and be sure everything would work the way you planned. The same goes for backstory -- what if another player suddenly implies your two characters used to have a relationship?
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Yeah, I had fun overall, otherwise I wouldn't catch a bus ride to the other side of the city to show up on sessions.

It's just... Idk, this specific thing with Attune felt more like filing out forms to get a permission to roleplay rather than a driving supporting force.
I can relate to this. There were ideas I got during play for my character in Blades in the Dark that I had to sit on until I got particular playbook advances or action scores. However, toward endgame, when my character enacted a ritual to infuse himself with the spirit of a leviathan, and @Campbell simultaneously took on a demon master, @Manbearcat told us we could swap out playbook moves we already had for new ones to reflect the drastic change of being bound to such alien beings. I traded the ability to summon a tempest for the ability to grow tentacles and eat, say, a whole group of slaughtered co-eds (whoops, sorry about that). @Campbell's character got the demon ability to teleport between any two fires.

So, the rulebook doesn't really talk about it, but if the established fiction supports it, I don't see why a player couldn't redistribute their character's XP at any time.

And because it apparently needs to be emphasized: If the established fiction supports it.

Now I don't know much detail about your Scum & Villainy game, @loverdrive, but when that shift in interest happened for your character, was there some playbook move you could have traded for another, or action ratings you could have traded for one in Attune?
 

niklinna

satisfied?
I've encountered this kind of thing as a GM. Personally, I'm not a fan (and I don't much like doing what I once heard someone call 'service top GMing'), but I do wonder what is going on here. I understand the pleasure of inhabiting a character. I completely understand feeling that a character is done and needs to be retired. What I don't get, is planning an arc for that character and then merely inhabiting them as they go along. I'd be tempted to write it off as a degenerate form of play (a sort of reverse railroading, or 'story now' play that never gets going because the player can't play in the moment), but maybe there's something I'm missing.
I had to look up "service top" and boy did I learn a thing or two (and I live in San Francisco!). Reminds me a lot of leader/follower roles in tango, "back leading" and other supposed problems, and how I far prefer dynamic switching and nested proposal/response loops over just doing one role. I'm sure this feeds back into RPG play loops somehow. 😄
 

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