Third Party Character Creation iOS App Removed

The d20 Fight Club for D&D 5th Edition iOS app has been removed from the Apple App Store by its creator at the request of WotC. The creator reports that he received a Cease & Desist demand (although it's worth noting that some supposed recent C&Ds appear to have turned out to be amicable requests). This follows on from the removal of the D&D Tools website and the more recent online character generator.

The creator reports that "I received a cease and desist order from Wizards of the Coast. All D&D apps will be removed from the App Store as they weren't compliant with WotC's copyrights and trademarks. Hopefully they'll be back in some form someday. Til then, thanks for all the support."

Nobody has actually shared one of these C&Ds yet, and others have indicated that what they actually received was simply a friendly email asking that they respect WotC's trademarks, so it's not entirely clear what is happening. Hopefully somebody will share one soon!

It does look like this particular app contained text and stat blocks copied directly from the D&D books. Below is the DM version of the app (the companion to the character creation app).

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[Dire Bare]

No.

Obviously WOTC wants to produce a new D&D movie. I don't think they could make that much clearer with the fact that they are going to court to regain their rights from whatever that other company is that has made all the terrible D&D movies so far, or some of them.

But I'm not talking about WOTC wanting to produce anything at all. I'm talking about a specific product. One that there is clearly a demand for. One that does not require the amount of investment WOTC has been putting into and not following through with on the issue. For the amount of money WOTC has spent on their failed apps, they could likely have hired everyone they send a C&D to and already produced a product.

So now we're left with no product. No clear intentions to make a product. And no competing products to fill the gap.

I trust one thing: businesses want to make money. This thing that WOTC is doing? That's not how you make money.
Announce the creation and soon-to-be release of a product. Send out C&Ds. Direct people to your product. Money made.
Announce nothing. Release nothing. Send out C&Ds to stifle the market. Direct people to nothing. No money made.

When businesses make moves that are not in the interest of furthering their immediate profits, I question their motives. All actions cost money. If the end result of spending money isn't to make more money, then why take the action?

You keep saying WotC has no clear intentions of producing D&D tools, and yet you are still wrong. They haven't said anything like, "Q3 of 2015 is the release of the new supercool virtual tabletop. Really, we mean it this time!" But to take the lack of that sort of announcement as WotC having no clear plans is ridiculous. They haven't shared their plans with YOU, but why should they? If their plans change, you will complain about that! (and I don't mean "you" as in Shidaku, but "you" as in the average overeager D&D fan angry with WotC for not doing what THEY feel is right IMMEDIATELY) You mention there is no competing product, as if that would be a reason for WotC to allow folks to create one by infringing on copyright. That's insane! Why would WotC want a competing product?

You act as if your own knowledge of "how to make money" is clearly superior to the fools running WotC who are *just leaving money on the table*. You "question their motives"? Huh? While I feel WotC is run by humans prone to error (and they have certainly made some), I trust the folks who work there who have done market research and who have lived through past mistakes . . . I trust their experience, their skill, and their desire to grow the D&D game.

I doubt we are going to convince each other of anything, but I really can't see the difference between WotC producing a D&D movie and producing D&D online tools. WotC isn't going to contact some fans working on a D&D fan movie and say, "Hey, you're infringing, but why don't we LICENSE you to make an official movie?" And WotC isn't going to contact some guy making an online character generator and say, "Hey, you're infringing, but why don't we LICENSE you to make an official D&D character generator?"

WotC has struggled to produce D&D online tools since the release of 3E fifteen years ago. It's a comedy of errors at this point, although not all of the errors are of WotC's doing. But that doesn't justify third parties, fan or profit, to infringe on WotC's copyrights, and it still makes sense for WotC to police those copyrights. And when WotC does license somebody to create the next attempt at online tools (and they will, if they haven't already), they aren't going to choose somebody who doesn't understand how to properly use and respect copyright and trademarks. And then there is the quality issue. All of the D&D tools I've seen so far, are cool fan projects. But their quality is leagues away from something I would pay real money for.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I just remembered . . .

WotC HAS licensed character generation tools to fan groups in the past! When the 3E character generator first failed, WotC contracted with Code Monkey Publishing, the guys behind PCGen at the time. The resulting official character generator, e-Tools, created by a group of fans was AWFUL. I don't really blame Code Monkey, or even WotC, for the mess e-Tools became, but I also don't blame WotC for learning that lesson and not deciding to go down that rabbit hole again.

 

[Dire Bare]

I look forward to seeing it announced on Wizards Twitter feed and Facebook page then that they have sent a C&D to d20 Fight Club. Because if their customer base is going to be pissed off about that, it'll have to show up via their primary method for gaining online info on it, right?

I think you and I are in agreement mostly, but come on. Of course WotC would not do that. But the fan who's online generator has gotten a takedown request could certainly tweet and Facebook about it. So could various RPG news sites and fan sites. Overall, while not meaningless, those voices would be small compared to official tweets and such from WotC themselves, they are out there.

I think we're moving towards a society where fan voices can be just as powerful, if not moreso, than "official" voices. We're not there yet though. I agree with you DefCon, that this controversy may be loud on the messageboards, but is quiet in the overall D&D fanbase. It won't stay that way forever though. I've got mixed feelings about when that day comes.

 

[Parmandur]

Betrayal at Krondor! Amazing old game. Never would've even known of the books (which I haven't read in forever, and even then, only the first two) without that game (which was awesome, and fan-made, if I recall).



But yeah. Stupid move for WotC, in my opinion.

Ummmmmm, no, Betrayal at Krondor was a major production from Sierra that Feist wrote for, and was paid royalties for when Sierra sold the game to customers. Licensed, official product, not fan-made...

 

[JamesonCourage]

Ummmmmm, no, Betrayal at Krondor was a major production from Sierra that Feist wrote for, and was paid royalties for when Sierra sold the game to customers. Licensed, official product, not fan-made...

Well, I don't know too much (it's been many, many years), but here's what I found on wiki:

Neal Hallford and Feist's influence
Although the game was licensed from Raymond E. Feist, a long held myth was that the text and the story of the game were actually created by Feist himself. Feist states in his afterword to Krondor: The Betrayal that he was busy writing The King's Buccaneer during the game's production and that the plot, text, and new characters were created solely by designers Neal Hallford and John Cutter. Feist did have editorial final say on the game, but most of what Hallford and Cutter created was left intact.

So yeah. He was involved. He didn't write for it, though. But if he was involved, it sides more against my initial point that for it, for sure. (Like, quite against it ). But what do I know? I'm drinking with my roommate for Valentine's, so I'm going to go back to her now. Have a good day, dude (or dudette), and thanks for the correction!

 

[Dannager]

If people are taking Wizard's intellectual property and making money off of it then it is perfectly o.k. for Wizards to send a Cease and Desist notice to them and get the application removed.

If fans are making no money off of a D&D5 online tool they created and Wizards has no official alternative, then that is terribly evil for Wizards to send a Cease and Desist notice to the fans and force them to remove the application.

No, it isn't.

If someone uses your intellectual property and spreads it around for free, it's undermining your business. It matters zero that they weren't charging for it. In fact, not charging for it can often be worse, because it means that people have no reason not to consume the infringing material!

The fact that the Wizards legal department doesn't know the difference is what really bothers me here.

You need to understand the difference yourself before you can make statements like that.

Wizards seems to me to be an unethical disloyal group that does not respect its employees who created the game,

How awesome of you to get offended on their behalf! I bet they really appreciate you guessing at their emotions and then using your guess to capitalize on an argument!

nor does it respect its fans that spent years playtesting the game for free,

Yes, what a colossal sacrifice we fans made playing a game without having to pay for it.

nor does it respect fans such as Pathguy who put out a Character Generator to help people create characters and navigate through the game and learn how to play it.

He didn't respect WotC's rights - rights they are legally and ethically entitled to. Why should WotC offer him some kind of special respect towards his non-existent rights?

The Player's Handbook does a very poor job organizing and ordering the steps of character creation.

It doesn't matter. You don't get to take their creative material, "fix" it for them, and turn around and distribute it for free. That's not something that you have the moral or legal right to do.

If you have your own company, never punish your fans for producing something that promotes your product or producing something that you don't have, such as an online character generator.That is just basic business sense.

No, it isn't. A free character generator can cannibalize book sales if players who might have otherwise purchased the book to guide them through character generation instead go to the free character builder to have it do that for them. And, more importantly, that's not your call to make. It doesn't matter if you think their decision is dumb, it's their right to make that decision, and no matter what decision they make, it's going to be an ethical one.

Something Wizards doesn't seem to have seeing as how the 5E game system was designed by the fans and Wizards botched the editing, formating and even the quality of the books.

Wow. Holy wow. Yeah, again, people who clearly are not part of a company's fan base and have not been a part of that fan base for the better part of a decade probably should avoid speaking for that fan base while pretending to be part of it.

But I will step down off the pulpit now. It is foolish of me to expect Wizards to make a good product when they gave us 4th Edition.

My god. Please stop.

 

[fantasmamore]

I agree with this. I'm the only one in my group that hangs out on the forums and learns about these things. I don't even discuss it with anyone outside the forums really, because I know very little about the facts of the matter.

Me too. I am DM in two groups and only ONE of my 7 players hangs on the forums or even buys books. However, since I am the only one that spends money for the hobby, searches for things and is informed of new releases etc, my players are not the normal customers wotc would like. If I decide tomorrow to do something else instead of playing RPGs, the groups will dissolve. So it's in the interest of wotc to keep me happy and make my life easier.
For all of those that say that 5e is simple and we don't need e-tools, just think of persons like me that must prepare everything for each session - from maps and tokens till the choices for my players' level up...

 

[Kramodlog]

WotC/Hasbro manages to appeal to a divided fan base with a new edition. Then it manages to divide it again. If only clear communications were made to explain stuff to fans.

 

[Dannager]

WotC/Hasbro manages to appeal to a divided fan base with a new edition. Then it manages to divide it again.

No, not really. This thread is pretty clear evidence to the contrary. The people acting offended by this aren't part of the fan base, and haven't been for years now. The most vocal critic in this thread (and the one who has taken great pains to sound like he's speaking on behalf of the fan base) hated 4e, thinks the fans are responsible for everything positive in 5e, and doesn't think of WotC as an ethical company. He's about as far removed from the fan base as you can get.

The fan base isn't being divided by this. The fan base doesn't care.

 

[ren1999]

Whatever. I already know the Pathfinder system. 13th Age has some great ideas but the numbers are too large to work with. I will join the Pathfinder Party. It's been a good experience and a learning experience being a part of the 5th Edition play-test. But now it is time to move on to Pathfinder and support them for awhile.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You act as if your own knowledge of "how to make money" is clearly superior to the fools running WotC who are *just leaving money on the table*. You "question their motives"? Huh? While I feel WotC is run by humans prone to error (and they have certainly made some), I trust the folks who work there who have done market research and who have lived through past mistakes . . . I trust their experience, their skill, and their desire to grow the D&D game.

The experts at Hasbro do indeed know what they are doing, which is to make as much money as they can from the D&D BRAND. They are not overly concerned with the game or what is best for it unless that impacts the generation of brand revenue. I trust them to squeeze every nickel that they can out of the D&D brand but I no expectation that in doing so, they care about the quality of the D&D game.