Third Party Character Creation iOS App Removed

The d20 Fight Club for D&D 5th Edition iOS app has been removed from the Apple App Store by its creator at the request of WotC. The creator reports that he received a Cease & Desist demand (although it's worth noting that some supposed recent C&Ds appear to have turned out to be amicable requests). This follows on from the removal of the D&D Tools website and the more recent online character generator.

The creator reports that "I received a cease and desist order from Wizards of the Coast. All D&D apps will be removed from the App Store as they weren't compliant with WotC's copyrights and trademarks. Hopefully they'll be back in some form someday. Til then, thanks for all the support."

Nobody has actually shared one of these C&Ds yet, and others have indicated that what they actually received was simply a friendly email asking that they respect WotC's trademarks, so it's not entirely clear what is happening. Hopefully somebody will share one soon!

It does look like this particular app contained text and stat blocks copied directly from the D&D books. Below is the DM version of the app (the companion to the character creation app).

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[Shasarak]

Do you honestly not understand why we consider your expectations a little ridiculous? You're saying that someone can steal WotC's intellectual property, sell it, and force WotC to compete with its own property, and that you support this!

Yeah, I guess if I said that it really would be ridiculous.

I mean, you even argued that tacking on a Dungeon or Dragon subscription might entice you. What if the IP-stealing app dude took the PDFs of Dragon and Dungeon and added those to his app? What's to stop him from doing exactly that with every value-add WotC tries to use to avoid having its market devoured by someone undercutting them with their own property?

Well before we worry about what some dude is going to steal - first there has to be something to steal. Lets see these value-add ons of which you speak.

Hell, imagine that you sold cakes, and that you baked 10 cakes every day. Imagine that someone came in the middle of the night, every night, and stole 5 of your cakes. Imagine that he then sold those cakes for $1.00 per cake. Imagine that you normally charge $10.00 per cake to cover your costs. Imagine that he set up shop, with your cakes, right next door. And - here's the kicker - imagine that people are telling you that you shouldn't do anything about him stealing your cakes and selling them, and that you are the unethical one for trying to fight back!

What about McDonalds for example - I can easily copy their products and sell them right next door. In fact a lot of Burger chains are doing that right now and yet somehow McDonalds is bigger then Hasbro by more then a factor of 10 to 1.

 

[MasterTrancer]

Yeah, I guess if I said that it really would be ridiculous.



Well before we worry about what some dude is going to steal - first there has to be something to steal. Lets see these value-add ons of which you speak.



What about McDonalds for example - I can easily copy their products and sell them right next door. In fact a lot of Burger chains are doing that right now and yet somehow McDonalds is bigger then Hasbro by more then a factor of 10 to 1.

Hmm...but they're selling their own brand hamburgers, not McDonald's ones but cheaper. The competition is then on the brand, the recipes, the stalls and so on. Not the same actually. What you're hinting at is what has been going on with, say, Paizo: they're selling a different taste of RPG...and I've yet to see WotC sue Paizo.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I guess if I said that it really would be ridiculous.



Well before we worry about what some dude is going to steal - first there has to be something to steal. Lets see these value-add ons of which you speak.

But wotc doesn't have to add anything. They are the sole legal source of ANY product. That's the point you are missing. If the want to offer a chargen program at any price point, that is entirely their right.

Why do they have to compete with someone who is outright stealing their IP?

What about McDonalds for example - I can easily copy their products and sell them right next door. In fact a lot of Burger chains are doing that right now and yet somehow McDonalds is bigger then Hasbro by more then a factor of 10 to 1.

Try it. Try selling a Big Mac, named a Big Mac with golden arches outside your restaurant and see how long you last.

Because McDonalds value isn't in the recipe. It's in the brand. You could sell burgers that exactly copy a Big Mac without a problem. But the second you call it a Big Mac, you're boned.

 

[Iosue]

Try it. Try selling a Big Mac, named a Big Mac with golden arches outside your restaurant and see how long you last.

Because McDonalds value isn't in the recipe. It's in the brand. You could sell burgers that exactly copy a Big Mac without a problem. But the second you call it a Big Mac, you're boned.

I suggest calling it a Big Mick, and don't use sesame seed buns!

 

[Hussar]

Lets put this in perspective shall we? Wotc spent millions of dollars developing 5e. Easily millions. 13 full time employees for three years is already about two million dollars and you haven't even turned on the lights yet.

Any product they produce has to go towards making a decent ROI on that investment. Which is one factor in deciding price points. Not the only one but certainly a factor.

The guy making a free app has only invested his time. Nothing else. He can afford to price at zero or close to zero because the return is virtually instant. He's not out of pocket at all.

You cannot compete with that. It's not possible. And you certainly shouldn't have to.

 

[Morrus]

Did anyone notice there is a Fan Site Kit up? As in an official WOTC one?

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/fan-site-kit

It's not quite the same thing. That gives you a small ZIP file of logos, graphics, and wallpapers you can use on your fan site in exchange for a bunch of restrictions you agree to.

 

[graypariah]

The arguments that a product being offered for free makes no difference as far as it's effect on their sales, doesn't take into account the realities of modern table top gaming and piracy. Whether someone agrees with piracy or not, they at least need to take into account the realities of it and understand that the table top gaming hobby (and most similar hobbies) are primary made up of computer literate people. Heck, probably more than half of the people who play the hobby and buy the books also casually pirate information.

Additionally the arguments that there is no contractual obligation for them to produce material is true, but like many people in this hobby I need to know that they are producing a product worth investing my time and money into. I was really psyched about 5th edition and I would be perfectly ok if they never produced another book, but I do need the game system I play to either have fan made material and tools readily available or have functional and affordable versions available. Currently there are some of the former available, but if they start removing them without replacing them with the latter I wont have much choice but to jump ship.

I think a lot of the people that are posting against WotC's decision are like me, they really love the game system and are struggling to avoid not having to switch to a different one.

 

[Iosue]

It's not quite the same thing. That gives you a small ZIP file of logos, graphics, and wallpapers you can use on your fan site in exchange for a bunch of restrictions you agree to.

Funny thing. I was looking for an EN World thread on the new Fan Site Kit and found a real long one. It took me a few pages of reading to realize it was from 2009. With a few changes, the text is virtually the same from the 2009 kit for 4e, including reference to a GSL.

Based on that, I suspect we won't see an OGL, but we will see a new GSL. Hopefully less restrictive than the old one.

 

[Nylanfs]

Please note that this Fan Site Policy does not allow you to publish, distribute or sell your own free-to-use games, modules or applications for any of Wizards' brands...

That right there is kind of a killer for almost everything digital.

 

[Morrus]

That right there is kind of a killer for almost everything digital.

It's an odd one. Basically, though it says "fan site policy" it's actually a "trademarks/graphics use policy". You can use the resources in the ZIP file as long as you follow the rules.

If you don't use the resources in the ZIP file, the whole thing doesn't really apply to you. You're back in the realm of regular law.

There is a weird line in there which says that if you use *anything* from wizards.com you agree to the rules, which sounds fairly weak a far as enforceability goes to me (a lawyer might weigh in). And another weird line which says that you can't post unapproved photos or pics of upcoming stuff anywhere (which would prevent me showing the Temple of Elemental Evil board game contents in the news today, for example). So it's not a policy suitable for a website like this one.

The article is a year old, dated January 2014, refers to the GSL, but contains Tyranny of Dragons graphics.