"THIS does only 1d4 damage?!"

[GuardianLurker]

Bottom-up instead of Top-Down

Heh.

We've all tried analyzing "Hit Points" in DnD in terms of its own rules. I don't think anyone's ever succeeded.

Hit Points are one of the Axioms of the DnD rule system - you can't explain them internally.

So, let's step outside of DnD and look at a game system that represents combat "damage" more concretely and less abstractly. The two best models that I know of are Champions/Fantasy Hero and Rolemaster. Normally, I like Rolemaster a little better for these pure theory discussions (d20 Rolemaster - I WILL check that out), but I think Champions is a little clearer, so I'll use that instead.

In Champions, you have three main characteristics that are drained by combat : Endurance, Stun, and Body. Endurance represents the body's "energy level"; doing anything reduces a character's Endurance, and vigorous actions (like swinging a sword, or dodgin a blow) reduce it faster than lazy ones (like laying on a couch). When a character is at Endurance 0 he is exhausted. The body recovers its Endurance fairly quickly, usually completely after a full night's sleep. Stun is the body's ability to resist shock. When a character reaches 0 STUN, he is unconscious. Again, Stun is healed fairly quickly, and even for a normal person, a few day's bed rest will completely restore them from 0. Body is the body's resistance to physical damage, to trauma. When a character reaches 0 BODY, he is dead. Body recovers the slowest of the three, and it can easily take weeks to heal a major wound.

You can have attacks that reduce only one, or two of these characteristics, but those are rare. Typically, attacks in the Hero System are either Normal or Killing. Both kinds of attack reduce all three characteristics. Both Normal and Killing attacks only reduce the Endurance of the character using them, and "bigger" attacks require more END than smaller ones to use. (A character can swing a dagger more times than he can a greataxe.) Normal attacks inflict a specified amount of STUN damage, and a much smaller ratio of BODY damage. Killing attacks inflict a specified amount of BODY damage, and a larger ratio of STUN damage. A character can spend more END than he has by taking STUN damage.

In the Heroic Fantasy settings, a Club would be a Normal Attack, and a Dagger a Killing Attack.

Now, as characters advance in power, they find it almost laughably easy to increase their END, and easy enough to raise their STUN, but increasing their BODY is difficult.

Now, let's take a character who has invested the same amount of XP (Character Points) in advancing all three. For simplicity, 20 Character Points in each. This will give him 40 END, 20 STUN, and 10 BODY.

(Yes, I will get back to DnD, not to worry.)

Now, pit this poor soul against his doppleganger, and arm them both with clubs. Early in the fight, they'll duck and weave, trying those exhausting attacks that do lots of damage. There might be a few lucky hits, but very little STUN or BODY will be done (relatively). Later in the fight, they'll start using the tried and true attacks, and start really hurting each other, with their blows getting weaker (cheaper) towards the very end.

In Hero/Champions, you track each of these three characteristics individually.

Now, imagine a single combined statistic. Let's make the END part the "top", the STUN the "middle" and the BODY the "bottom". For our example combatant, he'd have a combined statistic of 70, 0-10 from BODY, 11-30 from STUN and 31-70 from END. Also, instead of worrying about applying damage to each range individually, let's just work from the top down.

Strangely enough, we've just about recreated the hit point system from the earliest days of DnD.

So, anyway, that's how *I* think of DnD hit points. Hope it helped.

 

[Ruvion]

My bad...you are right Sablewyvern.
However, if you replace divine healing with arcane (bard's) or even mundane (a full day's rest)?

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Naysayer!

You know, this is why I'm really beginning to appreciate the Star Wars Vitality/Wounds system.

Regarding hit points... Consider Indiana Jones. In the Raiders of the Arc, there is a point in which he is trying to escape with the Arc from a Nazi excavation site.

In the space of about 10 minutes, he gets beaten, clubbed, hit by a car, dragged on the road, shot, and beaten again. Yet he still keeps going. That's hit points. And that's even counting all of the "near-misses" from bullets, fists, knives, trees, and monkeywrenches.

Hit points are not realistic. They are heroically cinematic.

 

[Black Omega]

I'm with Hong on this one. His explanation makes about as much sense as anything else trying to show why a dagger does the same damage against someone naked and someone in platemail.

You can only rationalize HP to a degree. No amount of experience is going to let me fall a 100 feet onto hard jagged rocks and live without crippling injury. But with enough levels a DnD fighter can do just that.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hmmm. I'd forgotten about Bards.

But, easily reconciled as well: they provide characters with the inspiration to truly believe they are invincible, or at least that they can go on for a bit longer. And we all know that fortune favours the brave. Plus some physical healing as well, if necessary, of course.

As for healing through rest - some of that could be physical healing, some mental (in a similar fashion to bards) and some just the balance of luck - the character hasn't been putting himself in danger constantly, so the universe looks more favourably upon him.

Now I'm starting to stretch credulity - hence I will refer back to my original post and stop before I begin that unstoppable descent...

 

[laiyna]

PHB Game Rules (hope this helps...)

Erase

Transmutation
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One scroll or two pages
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

Erase removes writings of either magical or mundane nature from a scroll or from up to two pages of paper, parchment, or similar surfaces. It removes explosive runes, glyphs of warding, sepia snake sigils, and arcane marks, but it does not remove illusory script or symbols. Nonmagical writings are automatically erased if the character touches them and no one else is holding them. Otherwise, the chance is 90%. Magic writings must be touched, and the character must roll 15+ on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) to succeed. (A natural 1 or 2 is always a miss on this roll.) If the character fails to erase explosive runes, a glyph of warding, or a sepia snake sigil, the character accidentally activates the runes, glyph, or sigil instead.

greets,

Laiyna

ps : This post makes as much sense as the hit point system/weapon damage does.

 

[Patrick-S&S]

You can only rationalize HP to a degree. No amount of experience is going to let me fall a 100 feet onto hard jagged rocks and live without crippling injury. But with enough levels a DnD fighter can do just that.

Indeed. The D&D game is not meant to be a realistic game, there are other systems that do that; HârnMaster, C&S in some degree, The Riddle of Steel perhaps, to name a few. It makes no sense to say that HP represent dodge, armour, and so on when you use healing to gain lost HP back. Just say that this is a heroic game and your character or that villain ain't gonna die from a dagger stab. There are d20 systems that you can die from a dagger such as Star Wars IIRC, and my upcoming Hârn d20 Guide.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Kuhnigget!

The HP Argument is as old as D&D itself. Chock it up to it being a *game* of *heroic* *fantasy*

Of course both you and Mike Tyson have about the same chance of dying from falling on jagged rocks. Are either of you heroic fantasy game characters? NOSIREE!

Of course a D&D fighter can survive a dagger to the back whereas you, Mr. Real World Person, cannot. A D&D Fighter is a hero, an icon of cinematic, heroic fantasy, and ignores what you would call "reality."

Yes, a dagger does 1d4 damage.Yes a *real* dagger would probably kill you. All the fencing classes and priestly rites can't make you a heroic fantasy character, nor does it make the dagger any less substantial. D&D makes both heroic fantasy characters *and* daggers less substantial.

There's been a lot of description of how HP loss and gaining are treated, and that's really about as techincal as you get in D&D with HP loss.

If, on the off chance, you were a heroic fantasy character, you would be Joe Nobody, Commonner 1. And guess what? That heroic fantasy dagger runs a durn good chance of killing you, what with your 2 hp. Just like it does in the Real World. This is how D&D, despite being heroic fantasy, makes it somewhat realistic. You are nobody. Nobodies can be killed by accidents and catching the flu and petty street theives. 2 hp, Com 1 nobodies do all the time.

That's why there's HEROES! Heroes don't get killed by accidents or flu or petty street theives. They cast magic and kill dragons. They don't die from gangrene infecting a wound or flower pots thrown from windows. In fact, an entire *hailstorm* of flower pots wouldn't kill them. Because only 2hp Com 1 nobodies die from getting flower pots to the head. And they don't get epic ballads written about them.

This also explains why HP advances with levels, y'know? As you get more heroic, your power goes up until you can wrestle with gods and slaughter dragons in your sleep. Levels are a sort of measure of "heroicness" that a character has. And, of course, the more heroic you are, the *less* likely you are to be killed by a pitchfork, because it's heroic fantasy, where only 2hp Com 1 nobodies die from pitchforks, and *that's* why they need big 178 hp Ftr 15 HEROES to save them from the pitchfork menace. It also explains the XP system, that you gain XP for doing things heroic and monumental. You don't gain XP from sittin' around growin' old, yo! You gotta be a hero to increase in heroicness!

It's unrealistic. It's fantastical. It's heroic. It suits it's purposes well.

If you don't like the fact that HP is an abstraction of heroism, easily hand-waved in all the ways given already (I, myself, use the "skill to avoid taking harder blows" approach), then perhaps heroic fantasy isn't the cup of tea you're looking for. Which is fine. Play something grittier and more realistic for more entertainment. ^_^

Okay, that was a rant. Sorry. But it irks me when people demand to know *exactly* what an abstraction in D&D measures.

It measures how heroic you are. Now shut up before I have to punch you for 1d3 subdual damage and knock your 2hp Com1 butt out, mofo.

--Meaning No Harm, The Midget

 

[Jack Haggerty]

You can only rationalize HP to a degree. No amount of experience is going to let me fall a 100 feet onto hard jagged rocks and live without crippling injury. But with enough levels a DnD fighter can do just that.

Ah, but don't forget the "massive damage" rule.

There are d20 systems that you can die from a dagger such as Star Wars IIRC...

Kind of... but not really.

You see, Wound points in SW are equal to your Con score, so your average Commoner has 10 Wounds. Daggers deal 1d4. Now, to make up for this a little, when you deal Wound damage to someone, they must make a Fort save or fall unconscious. So, what would most likely happen is someone stabs you and you get knocked out from the pain and shock. They then slit your throat as you lie helpless on the ground.

The only time a single stab could kill someone in D&D, is if you score a critical hit on a someone with a "Professional" class. Normally, a critical hits bypasses the Wound points and goes straight to Wounds. But professional classes don't have Vitality points. So a critical hit simply kills them, no matter what the weapon.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And also, a bullet to the brain is a bullet to the brain. Same with most massive internal injuries. Past a certiain point, nobody can shrug it off.

Hmm. I can`t find the reference, but somewhere in the Core Rulebooks (I believe it was in the PHB), they say: "A dagger through your eye is a dagger through your eye".
And this is mentioned in conjunction with Coup de Grace and/or helpless defender...

So, if Mike Tyson or whoever is not helpless, he simply want let you shoot into his brain or stab a dagger in your eye

Mustrum Ridcully