This mentality needs to die

[Orius]

Remind me to never to pay to be a player at Chris Perkins table. Besides being hidebound and always looking for a reason to say 'No', his delivery is almost anti-story and anti-cinematic. I'd blame it on the edition except that I know there are some good DMs here at EnWorld who've transcended the edition.

Being hidebound and saying "No" also transcend edition. The stereotypical old-school killer RBDM would never even deign to pick up a 4e book yet would do everything he could to make life difficult for players. So no, this isn't a 4e problem, it's a DM style problem, if even that.

I don't have a problem with Perkin's ruling. I'm not familiar with 4e rules at all, but he clearly states that Darkfire targets creatures, not objects. So therefore, it can't be used to melt ice. Besides, if it's just 4e faerie fire it can't melt ice anyway, so I'd probably make a similar ruling.

This also isn't a 4e thing. Back in 2e, there were plenty of times in Sage Advice in Dragon where Skip generally encouraged a fairly strict reading of spells and a narrow application of them rather than getting creative with them, as a way of preventing rules laywering. Similar advice was given in High Level Campaigns. So this is thinking that the writers of the game have been working under for at least 15 years and prior to WotC getting the game.

I sort of got the feeling they were supposed to do that. After all, it is a big rotating fire-shooting trap in the middle of a room with an ice-sealed door.

That what I suspected immediately when the jet of flame went off, they should find a way to point it at the door.

Oh, re Darkfire, I think the correct RB GM's response is:

"OK, you outline the door with an eldritch glow. It's still frozen shut. Next!"

Yeah, that's another RBDM approach, let the players waste resources. For extra points, drop a random encounter at the worst possible time. Though honestly, if I were DMing, I might very well let them waste their powers if I know they know better. I don't like to RBDM per se, but I also don't hesitate to take advantage of really stupid PC actions either. If they're less experienced players, I wouldn't actually say no, but explain that it wouldn't work or do any good.

I would assume that Perkins was giving them the benfit of the doubt here either because they're novice players (they are novices right?) or for the benefit of people watching the video. Perhaps even more of the latter, as someone who is representing WotC here, he's giving an example of the DMing style they're trying to encourage I guess.

This comes from, IMO, the IP-ization of 4E and corporate efforts to stave off others from doing with 4E what some have done with editions previous to 3E, namely, using the OGL to create a clone and thus create opportunities to out-D&D, D&D (or cut into brand territory).

Yeah, a lot of 4e naming conventions are highly unappealing, but I can understand the IP reasons behind it. Generic fantasy can't be trademarked (as T$R learned the hard way). These specific names can be tradmarked and harder to rip off. I don't like some of the 4e name conventions I've read, but I suspect it's from the amount of stuff getting branded, probably it's not easy to have everything sound cool.

I did find it funny that the DnD Creative Brand Manager had to read the card to know what DarkFire was all about

Probably for the benefit of the players at the table and viewers. I would assume Perkins knows damn well how the power works.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, if they'd used those names, someone (I'm not saying it'd be you, but someone) would complain "Why did they call it drowmark? It doesn't cause the target to take -2 to hit targets other than the drow. Does it supersede other marks? I don't understand. Why couldn't they have avoided such awful, conflictig names?" or "Assassin's Halo? But my drow is an enlightened Paladin of Pelor. Does that man I'm forbidden from using my racial power?"

I'm not getting at your names, just pointing out that there will be criticism of the name whatever you call it.

Oh, and I imagine Faerie was changed to Dark because you can't have the classic emo/goth race have a power that suggests bright twinkly lights and panpipes...

True, but both at least pass the "casual reading" test. Meaning, the words don't necessarily imply anything misleading to people just reading the words. Faerie fire and darkfire don't do that as well (unless, in the former case, you are up on your Welsh mythology ). It's not really a matter of being THE BEST NAME, as it is of getting a better name.

But really, it boils down to, "Bluebell's player was pretty justified in thinking darkfire made fire, and a better name could've helped him out, and 4e has had a big problem with goofy names before, so I'm glad they've started to look at this as an issue, as shown in their more recent products." Really a minor point.

And I'm not so sure about your last point. I mean, they're still "fey humanoids" (though for the record, I have no actual problem with that naming convention. Settle down.).

 

[S'mon]

Easily done. But it does feel like the player is being punished. There is a difference also between a player that knows his abilities and trying to play it creatively compared to a newbie who just say "can this card with the word "fire" do the trick?"

If it was his Daily he was going to waste I might give him a chance to reconsider, but part of playing a game is learning the game, what works and what doesn't. Plus, much better to get this resolved in 20 seconds than 6 minutes.

 

[Maggan]

Videotape your next gaming session. Stuff it up on Youtube and make it available to everyone at En World to critique. I'm pretty sure ALL of us would have at least one cringeworthy moment. At the very, very least.

I once ran a session that was broadcast on national television in Sweden. It was cringeworthy, although not abysmal.

The funny thing is, many comments afterwards decried my skills at game mastering as shown on tv, while I get a lot of positive comments at cons.

So the transfer of a gaming session from real life to video really sets things in a very different light. Roleplaying is not a spectator sport.

Or I'm a bad GM. Always a possibility.

/M

 

[Pig Champion]

Oh, and I imagine Faerie was changed to Dark because you can't have the classic emo/goth race have a power that suggests bright twinkly lights and panpipes...

Wait, what? Goth/Emo kids would be all over some faerie flavour. One of the players I had for a time who identified with both the aforementioned sub-cultures wanted to play a Pixie Werewolf.

I kid you not.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Could we please let the usual goth / emo stereotyping out of this thread? Both things are not remotely the same. It´s insanely juvenile to feel the need to use them as a denigrating label for something you don´t care for. I thought we left that behind us after the big 4e flamewars died down.

 

[Starfox]

As an aside, anyone with experience with ice can tell you it takes a lot of fire to heat something that is really frozen. Ice takes a LOT of energy to melt.

I thought that session was running very slow. It looked like an introductory game to me; the players seemed unused to the game. Probably a big part of why it was running so slowly. Or maybe they were acting this way to make an introductory video. Had the game proceeded at speed, it would probably have seemed frightening to newbie watchers.

When Chris looked at that card, it seemed to me that he was looking for a way to tell the player why it didn't work, and that the reason he gave was probably not the one he used to make his own decision. As explained above, Darkfire really isn't a suitable power for melting anything. But this is all speculation.

My main experience of Mr. Perkins is as editor of Dungeon Magazine, which I thought was one of the low points of that publication because it empathized dungeons over stories. But I never thought his rules mastery or DM skills were anything but excellent from what he's written.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Could we please let the usual goth / emo stereotyping out of this thread? Both things are not remotely the same. It´s insanely juvenile to feel the need to use them as a denigrating label for something you don´t care for. I thought we left that behind us after the big 4e flamewars died down.

Could you please leave a discussion of sanity out of this thread? To use it merely as a adjective for describing another unrelated concept is quite offensive.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Wait, what? Goth/Emo kids would be all over some faerie flavour. One of the players I had for a time who identified with both the aforementioned sub-cultures wanted to play a Pixie Werewolf.

I kid you not.

As someone who identifies with the goth subculture, I find this insulting. Playing "Pixie Werewolves", or Vampires has nothing to do with being a member of a music or a fashion scene (although some within the scene may fantasize themselves as being one for a myriad of reasons).

Playing a pixie, werewolf, vampire, etc is all about wanting to play out a insanely powerful character archetype or a monster within a fantasy/horror context. Though you insinuated superiority to a "goth" or "emo kid" who might play a were-wolf or vampire, you should ask yourself, what about playing a tiefling fighter, shifter ranger, or a dragon-born sorcerer makes any non-goth or non-emo role-player superior? After all, a monstrous archetype is a monstrous archetype no matter what kind of artwork, name, or fluff it uses. In my belief, there is no difference, it's all about playing a character idea (or game) you thought would be cool.

 

[Pig Champion]

As someone who identifies with the goth subculture, I find this insulting. Playing Pixie Werewolves, or Vampires have nothing to do with being a member of a music or a fashion scene (although some may fantasize themselves as being one for a myriad of reasons). It's all about wanting to play out a insanely powerful character archetype within a fantasy/horror context often with the belief that doing so is more sophisticated then playing straight medieval fantasy.

Out of interest, why are you insulted? I'm just pointing out, with no malice, that faeries are iconic with in the community. I mean, I know of two fairy cults that are intertwined with the gothic scene here.

The player I mentioned wasn't interested in game mechanics but just a freak for faeries and stuff of that nature (get it). Of course, I know that and you didn't but I wasn't trying to offend anybody, so I apologize.