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This mentality needs to die

hopeless

Adventurer
Reg: Darkfire and that link

What is? Usually its better to explain your postion then having links to things.

As far as I can tell what Chris Perkins should have said is that Darkfire can only be used to cloak a target in what looks like fire granting an attack bonus, it isn't actually fire more a sort of faerie fire but other than that I have no idea.
 

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hopeless

Adventurer
Reg: This

Drow dark-fire not melting ice? Sounds... reasonable?
I would have let the guy make an arcana check to "magically" melt the ice, or given him some option other than "there is only one way to open this door - period".
Especially as this is being recorded, I think you'd want to stonewall as little as possible.
But still, drow dark-fire doesn't actually make fire.

Just a thought but wouldn't prestdigitation work on melting the ice?
 

nedjer

Adventurer
You know, after listening to the podcast, not only do I think this is such a non-issue as to make this a totally ridiculous accusation, but the fact that he prompted the players by reminding them they all had torches, and that the door could be melted by other fire-related means, this puts the accusation squarely in troll territory.

Not only is there nothing wrong with how he handled it, nobody was up in arms over it or upset by it or even noticed it beyond the half-second it took to mentally absorb the concept that the door was not a creature.

I don't need to transcend any kind 4e hate, because I've never had 4e hate. Despite its battle game micro-management rules it is entirely possible to play 4e at speed and with roleplaying.

However, the GM has to make that happen in 4e and the Youtube videos show exactly how to get a major fail and end up with a laborious and predictable 'adventure'. This is nothing to do with niggling interpretations of the rules and everything to do with skipping essentials:

- the scenario is mapped out in advance instead of revealed (OK for new players but it takes suspense out of the game)
- play is unbearably slow to the point where we're watching lingering shots of someone sucking a doughnut
- encounters happen in a hermitically sealed bubble, where you can spend half an hour talking with a door without anyone butting in
- the talking door is a fantastical early 1980's trap which takes players away from any sense of threat or gritty realism
- the player's are not challenged by the trap/ puzzle. They just roll a dice and hear the outcome
- the Darkfire 'decision' is 2 seconds of GM's disgression not a debate about the geopolitical structure of the Balkans

The WoTC guy may be a great manager/ product designer but it is not trolling to recognise that, on the occasions shown, we are watching a demonstration of mechanics not roleplaying. This is the result of skipping several roleplaying essentials involving engaging your audience and enabling roleplaying.
 

fuzzlewump

First Post
@nedjer

The only failed adventure is one in which the participants don't have fun. If they only get through 1/10th of a battle in 4 hours, was laborious and predictable, and they had the time of their lives, they win.

It feels weird typing it, but I think you seem to be missing that in your discussion of "essentials."
 

kevtar

First Post
Our group plays different editions, we're not locked into a particular edition, but right now we are playing the scales of war [4e] and our game sessions DON'T look like these. I think part of the problem was that he was teaching people to play, and it is a challenge to keep the energy high when you have to explain a rule on every roll. Apart from that, I would've allowed the player to target the door, but there would not have been any effect from the use of Darkfire. No harm, no foul... move along.

The biggest issue for me was that it just didn't look fun. I'm not cappin' on Perkins' DMing skills, it's just that the video wasn't very interesting. I don't see how that is going to entice anyone to play D&D. It was basically ten minutes of opening a frozen door, and what's worse, there are the "geeky" (or what is perceived as being geeky) rules arguments that appear in the comments below - and yes, I participated in the argument. I am geek, hear me roar.

Overall, not a shining moment for 4e or any PnP rpg. Perhaps those of us who feel we have fun, exciting games should post video edits of some of our encounters.
 

wedgeski

Adventurer
Overall, not a shining moment for 4e or any PnP rpg. Perhaps those of us who feel we have fun, exciting games should post video edits of some of our encounters.
Yep. In a few threads over the last couple of years, mostly referencing the WotC podcasts, I've made exactly the same invitation. And no-one, so far as I know, has done so.
 

AllisterH

First Post
re: Branding

See the whole dustup in the other thread about the "genericness" of the term ARMY BUILDER....Really, I'm not sure what people expect companies to do....
 

nedjer

Adventurer
@nedjer

The only failed adventure is one in which the participants don't have fun. If they only get through 1/10th of a battle in 4 hours, was laborious and predictable, and they had the time of their lives, they win.

It feels weird typing it, but I think you seem to be missing that in your discussion of "essentials."

I don't doubt that they had social fun or that new players make a difference. However, 'the essentials' are about the clear link between in-game 'fun' or 'enjoyment' and the many choices we have when we use our brains to generate enjoyment during gameplay.

It's discussed at:

RPGs and skills/ fun
Tabletop RPGs and skills/ fun
Videogame RPGs and skills/ fun

Everything there is based on empirical evidence drawn from high quality scientific research. The videogame industry spends fortunes on researching the link between fun or enjoyment and how we 'exercise' our brains during gameplay.

This, perhaps, 'matters' with tabletop RPGs because the 80% of the world most in need of fun and skills will never afford a subscription to DDI or a copy of Final Fantasy 13. So, yeah, I'm being preachy not ranty :)
 


Tortoise

First Post
I've also been a player at Chris Perkins' table for a session. Back at GenCon in 2000 he was running a bunch of us through a 3E session. Instead of nit-picking us on the new rules, he let me get away with something while running a cleric. I converted my domain spell to healing (which the 3e rules forbade).

This instance seems like he was trying to get the newbies to examine their powers to pick up rules tidbits, though I agree, a little more explanation would have helped tremendously especially since the video will be seen by new players and new DMs alike.

Chris is a good DM, and as PirateCat already said, very evocative with his role-playing and descriptions.
 

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