This "resting at 9:05 AM" business

Kesh said:
They finally fixed this in SR4. You should've seen the forums explode in anger over that one, too. The new system is a lot more fun for everyone involved, but some SR grognards (especially the decker-crowd) were up-in-arms.
Though it's still not perfect, I think. If you can't manage to put the decking... err, hacking act within a combat, nothing changes. (I played SR 4 the second time last week end, and the Technomancer hacked into a secured Comlink. The rules are a lot less clunky, but since the scenario wasn't during a combat, it was just his time to do something for some time.)

Brother MacLaren said:
I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
I think I might have "targeted" the wrong goal in my post. I was more worried about the typical notion of "power creep" between editions, which wasn't your point.

But still, maybe I can phrase it in another way so that it still gets my point across (even though it's not really necessary, I guess, because it doesn't really add something):
You cannot look at a AD&D monster and check if it has more hit points than an equivalent monster in D&D 3.x to see if something changed balance-wise. You have to look at at the damage of the wizard in AD&D and D&D. It happens to be that they are the same (but the hit points of the monster are not), which leads to the change in balance - Wizards in AD&D could meaningful affect a combat if out of spells, Wizards in D&D 3.x have little chance to do so.
So, my point is, you have to compare the wizards damage to the monsters hit points within one edition. Only once you made this comparision, you can compare this ratio to that of another edition. :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

My experience has been that it can be a problem...and how difficult a problem varies from group to group and game to game, but it is a problem at every level. I had a game that went from 1st level in 3e to 28th level in 3.5 over the course of 6 years or so. My players are all gamers who've been playing for decades. They are not inexperienced. They are not foolish and rarely unprepared. Several of them recognize this as a potential problem, as do I. For some, clearly it's not an issue. It's not a game-breaking issue, either...having been on both sides of the equation, I can appreciate the problems both a DM and player face in this regard. Which is why I look forward to it.

At varying levels, the spellcaster will be forced with a 'usefulness' choice. Yes, they can contribute. In fact, under 3e, they can contribute with more effectiveness than ever before. But that hardly means there is no room for improvement, IMHO. This choice, however, is often one of diminishing returns. The spellcaster, more than any other class, has to dole out his effectiveness in limited quantities. The inherent problem with this is that every combat he has to decide, "is this the combat where it's worth using my fireball/lightning bolt/disintegrate/etc.?"

That fundamental choice is undoubtedly part of the fun for some players. But it's also a source of consternation and frustration for others. In some cases, the spellcaster's efficacy is tantamount to the party's efficacy. Do you go into the tomb to fight the ghast or the bodak without the cleric ready to counteract it's powers? You might, if the need is great or the time urgent. But if the party has no other way to deal with it's terrible powers, you may choose to wait until he has them. That hurts verisimilitude for a LOT of people.

In many cases, the spellcaster empties his arsenal...or at least the meaningful parts of it...well before the adventure is done. Maintaining that Remove Poison or Alarm spell until the evening is hardly the stuff of excitement, useful as it may be when it's needed. Alternately, the spellcaster feels the need to be extra-conservative...his most powerful spell may save the day....but when to use it? The bard often had this same problem with his bard-song...until Eberron gave him a feat to add four more uses at first level. Suddenly he could be an essential part of the team's strategy and with five daily uses at first level, he made a significant difference in every low-level combat. He didn't suddenly become vastly more powerful...just slightly more powerful and vastly more useful. His secondary song abilities became much more viable, when he knew he could spare them for other uses. What if the wizard and cleric got similar such boons as the backup powers for a bard? Perhaps they could dedicate a spell-slot for a specific pool of effects (bolt, shield, movement, illusion), inherently weak but always useful? There are plenty of possibilities to make a spellcaster feel relevant without making him overpowered.

Complete Mage features the Reserve Feats and they have proven quite popular. The wizard in my game can cast a storm-bolt every round. It's weaker than a melee attack, more limited in range than a ranged weapon, requires tactical manuevering to be effective and is unique for a spellcasters (having electrical damage as a feature) and it requires dedicating a spell (which also determines it's power). This gives the caster a meaningful resource choice all through the day (must memorize a specific type of spell...use the spell or keep the ability?) without significantly increasing his power. To me, this is a win/win.

The suggestion of switching over to a non-spellcaster ability is fine, but in practical situations not all that exciting. At early levels, a caster can maintain with the fighter in some limited way...but only because the numerical differences are slight. Within a couple of levels, this becomes less likely. And as levels grow higher, having plenty of spells doesn't translate into immediate satisfaction. The choice then becomes one of lesser effectiveness: a magic missle, acid arrow, fireball or ice storm is not very effective at 17th level, generally...especially against the kinds of foes you're facing at that level.

3e, in general, discarded the notion that the classes had to be balanced with differing advancement rates or that classes were meant to underperform at differing points in their careers. It sounds like 4e is taking that notion a step further, by removing the limitation further still.

To me, the question isn't whether or not a DM can compensate for these issues...it's whether I, as both DM and player, WANT to be forced to accommodate what I consider to be an artificial construct within the game if there's a perceived benefit to doing it differently. Whatever maximizes the game's fun is, for me, a benefit. What works for me may not work for others....and when the time comes, I expect people to vote with their dollars. But based on past performance, I'm willing to give the WotC designers the benefit of the doubt. I liked 1e, in it's time. I left it based on issues like these. 3e brought me back. 3.5 did nothing to hurt the game, IMHO, and I expect 4e to enhance my game. If I'm wrong, the market will prove it and 3.5 will remain the champ. Either way, I see it as a win/win.
 



I really liked the implementation of late 3.5.

For those that didn't like the resource management aspect and felt that "being wizardly" meant having a magical option always at hand, there were several good options. The reserve feats, the warlock class (even for just a one-level dip), and scribing scrolls (2nd-level character was expected to have enough gold to make DOZENS of scrolls). Not to mention cantrips that remained useful through a few levels (such as Daze).

Now, being a fan of the way wizards used to run, I could play a straight wizard all the way through. I'd be very happy to fall back on mundane options if a fight didn't call for the few 1st-level spells I had, I wouldn't mind skipping actions some turns, and I'd embrace the "delayed gratification," ESPECIALLY if I knew that the DM was willing to kill my PC. That way, getting a high-level wizard would feel like a real accomplishment, not just a reward for sticking with the campaign. I could choose to spend my feats on enhancing the "one big bang" (such as Sudden Maximize) or I could work to get a little more mundane ability (maybe Precise Shot).

A player who wanted more staying power at low levels in exchange for reduced power at higher levels could go Wlk2/WizX, or something like that. Or the reserve feats.

What I don't like is that they seem to be removing the option for players who liked the strategic resource management aspect, or who liked the delayed gratification of starting off really weak and growing strong.
 


Brother MacLaren said:
What I don't like is that they seem to be removing the option for players who liked the strategic resource management aspect, or who liked the delayed gratification of starting off really weak and growing strong.

What's more is that the reason they are doing it, apparently, is that it is categorically "unfun" -- which is automatically a flase statement because it is, in fact, fun for some people. That's why I actually liked the Wizard/Sorcerer split of 3e (and even showed grudging respect for the inclusion of the Warlock as a concept, even if I didn't like the implementation): it provided various options for spell-slinging characters, and therefore players. it said, "Which is fun for you?" rather than "This is fun for you."

I realize that no two D&D games will ever be alike -- there's too much playsteyl preference inherent in havinga bunch of people sitting around the table for that to be the case. However, the systems and subsystems of each version make certain playstyles easier and "mainstream". The problem I have is that "D&D" means a certain playstyle to me, one that involves resource management and exploration in addition to combat and (melo)drama.
 

Reynard- I'm curious, having not seen the new per-encounter mechanics, how do you know for a fact that it won't involve resource management?

I get the impression that it will, but you seem 100% convinced that any change away from the CURRENT resource-management paradigm means an end to gaming as we know it.

Any reasons for this?

Also, how do you know less worrying about resources might not ENCOURAGE exploration?

I've seen parties that were afraid to stray too far from civilization, lest they get seriously wounded in an encounter in dangerous territory.

These rules sound like they might encourage the playstyle you hold so dear.

Or, to put it more simply, why are you so positive that any changes to the current paradigm must be bad, sight unseen?
 

Vigilance said:
Reynard- I'm curious, having not seen the new per-encounter mechanics, how do you know for a fact that it won't involve resource management?
We've had a quote from one of the designers that, once a spellcaster has used up his daily spells, he's still at about 80% effectiveness.

Vigilance said:
Also, how do you know less worrying about resources might not ENCOURAGE exploration?

I've seen parties that were afraid to stray too far from civilization, lest they get seriously wounded in an encounter in dangerous territory.
But that's just the thing. I want to play a low-level wizard who goes into the depths of Ptolus (or the Caves of Chaos, or whatever) with seriously limited resources. Who takes the plunge knowing he *could* run out of spells if he isn't careful. Sure, the character might die, but that risk makes it even more rewarding if he lives. It's like the tagline for Army of Darkness: "Trapped in time, surrounded by evil, low on gas."

I *want* the risk of running out of spells or supplies. With resource management -- daily spells, limited arrows, having to track food supplies, rust monsters destroying gear -- you can get some high-tension situations. Attrition, a ratcheting level of despair, a lucky break in a safe refuge to camp or a long-dead adventurer's gear.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
We've had a quote from one of the designers that, once a spellcaster has used up his daily spells, he's still at about 80% effectiveness.


But that's just the thing. I want to play a low-level wizard who goes into the depths of Ptolus (or the Caves of Chaos, or whatever) with seriously limited resources. Who takes the plunge knowing he *could* run out of spells if he isn't careful. Sure, the character might die, but that risk makes it even more rewarding if he lives. It's like the tagline for Army of Darkness: "Trapped in time, surrounded by evil, low on gas."

I *want* the risk of running out of spells or supplies. With resource management -- daily spells, limited arrows, having to track food supplies, rust monsters destroying gear -- you can get some high-tension situations. Attrition, a ratcheting level of despair, a lucky break in a safe refuge to camp or a long-dead adventurer's gear.

But again, as you yourself just stated, they're not eliminating resource management entirely.

You don't think being at 80% combat effectiveness, far from home, when you're probably low on HP too is a disadvantage?

They aren't eliminating resource management, they're trying to make it something that doesn't completely dictate the pace of play.

I've seen it happen, many others in this thread have said THEY have seen it happen.

I consider it something worth addressing, and so do others.

Yes, resource management is where part of the game's tension comes from. Hit points being the ultimate resource.

But it shouldn't be AS important as it is.

In my opinion obviously.

No one said everyone was going to like every change.

But the idea that addressing this issue is somehow the designers tilting at windmills is mistating the issue.

It *IS* an issue to some folks, so whether or not it's a big deal to you and you end up having to housrule it, that doesn't mean it isn't worth addressing.
 

Remove ads

Top