This "resting at 9:05 AM" business

The idea that having some abilities you can use per encounter will get rid of resource management doesn't seem right to me.

My feeling is that 4e will *reduce* resource management (this is a very good thing imo) but not eliminate it.

You will still have spells that you can only cast a certain number of times per day and there will still be encounters where you can't rely on your per-encounter abilities.

Those are your bread and butter.

That's my sense.
 

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Whizbang Dustyboots said:
At level 2? Really? Your player characters have lots of wands and scrolls at level 2?

By level 2 the cleric has ONE wand, and they each have at least 5 or 6 scrolls made each, sure. Sometimes more.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
And, seriously, could we PLEASE stop with the insults?

"the fighters and rogues play a little smart in combat" is an insult? :confused: It's all cool, I didn't insult anyone, sir dude.
 

DM_Jeff said:
By level 2 the cleric has ONE wand, and they each have at least 5 or 6 scrolls made each, sure. Sometimes more.
That's a pretty expensive magic item to have to include in a level 1 dungeon, which for a lot of DMs, typically don't include any magic items at all. Alternately, they need to collect a whole lot of treasure in a place that, again, often isn't replete with it, and then head off to the magic store which, again, lots of DMs don't use.

I find the solution to this problem to be just as big of a problem.
DM_Jeff said:
"the fighters and rogues play a little smart in combat" is an insult? :confused: It's all cool, I didn't insult anyone, sir dude.
You left out "I have smart players who prepare, that's all," saying, in other words, that players who have this problem aren't smart and don't prepare. Yeah, that's insulting, sir dude.
 
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dmccoy1693 said:
That's the Fighter's time to shine. There, the wizard is the scholarly one, less useful in combat. That's the way its always been with D&D.
Having one class suck to play for a large part of the campaign is not a sacred cow worth preserving, much less celebrating.

"Bob, your fun will be doing squat for most of the evening, and then in the final encounter, you're going to bust out the spell that saves the day."

"My spell only does 1d6 damage at level 1."

"Right, SAVE THAT SPELL, because that'll totally save the day when you cast it two or three times in the final battle."

"But that's the same as your sword damage!"

"You're a good man, Bob!"

Everyone at the table should get to have fun.
 
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Whizbang Dustyboots said:
That's a pretty expensive magic item to have to include in a level 1 dungeon, which for a lot of DMs, typically don't include any magic items at all. I find the solution to this problem to be just as big of a problem.

I can understand that. But a 750 gp wand split among 4 or 5 PCs at 2nd level isn't a big deal in the camapign I run. Anyway, the situation the OP suggested does not happen in the games I run, but I can understand how this might be more difficult in a campaign with less magic or treasure.

And I'm also not sure how many 9am's I've whacked my CR7 party with something like a darn CR13 encounter, either. :)

EDIT: I also know there's a reason Wizards and Clerics get Scribe Scroll for free at 1st level. It's not much of a stretch to use it. :heh:

-DM Jeff
 
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dmccoy1693 said:
That's the Fighter's time to shine. There, the wizard is the scholarly one, less useful in combat. That's the way its always been with D&D.

I don't want to come across that I don't like what I hear about 4E, I do like what I hear, but I from what I hear, the only similarity that 1/2/3/3.5 have with 4E D&D is the terminology. I'd love to play this game, if they called it something other then D&D. The points of light setting sounds awesome and if they make a single campaign setting book for it, I'll probably pick it up. But IMHO, the system isn't D&D, YMMV.
Why does the wizard have to suck in order for the fighter to shine? Sure, that may be the way it's been done traditionally in D&D, and most everyone accepts it but not many people really like not being able to do anything.

I would argue that it's possible to make it such that the wizard has something to do, but shines at wizard-y things, and the fighter has something to do while shining at fighter-y things. Right now, that's levels 4-8 in D&D.
 

The problem with the wizard there is, as Monte Cook pointed out, deferred fun. Which sucks as a balancing mechanism.

As an aside I've noticed that Monte Cook is right approximately 100% of the time.
 


>>>"I'd love to play this game, if they called it something other then D&D. The points of light setting sounds awesome and if they make a single campaign setting book for it, I'll probably pick it up. But IMHO, the system isn't D&D, YMMV."

Wow. I've heard this around my game table a lot the last couple of weeks.

-DM Jeff
 

For the sake of perspective, I feel compelled to point out that we really don't know yet what the specific changes are. It's probably too soon to make blanket statements like "WotC is forgetting (something)" or similar. I think we all have concerns, and hopes, and it's natural to voice them and that's fine...but it's good to keep an open mind too. :)

I mean, for example, it's not beyond possibility that a wizard in 4e might have some kind of at-will magic bolt that does crummy damage but strikes as a ranged touch. Inferior even to 1st level spells, but replaces the "crossbow" with something he can at least feel somewhat useful with...but doesn't appreciably increase his real power level. He'll still want to manage his prepared spells, but will still be able to contribute magically without them.

One interesting thing about scrolls and wands, since they so frequently surface in this discussion, is that they are most useful at low levels, when saves are low enough that these devices have a chance of working. Yet, these are the very levels that wands are, by and large, not very available due to cost. By the time a PC can casually drop two grand or more on a wand of higher than 1st level, unless that wand is the requisite 'healstick,' it's usually a lot less effective in play, due to limited duration and save DC.

I'm not saying that makes them useless by any means. I'm just saying that based on my own personal experience (which is of course indicative of my play style, and no one else's :)), it's rare for a PC to spend a lot of money on stuff that will be going bye-bye. If I can buy a ring of protection +1, or a wand of Knock...well, doors can be bashed down, and that ring will increase my touch AC too. Score. I don't think this is because I'm unreasonable, or that I'm bad at resource management, or because I'm shortsighted, foolish, or am failing to use the system to its fullest. It's because gold is valuable...and it too is a resource to be managed. Ultimately, if a spell is of sufficiently questionable utility that it rarely needs to be prepared, it's of limited enough utility that I don't want to spend much money on keeping items that cast it around either. Scrolls help with this issue, as they're considerably cheaper, and (more importantly) more often found as treasure, which results in large stockpiles of captured scrollage. Even so, it's a crapshoot if any given spell you have on scroll is desirable at any given moment, and the really GOOD scroll spells usually wind up being cast into spellbooks. :)

My point in saying all this is that I think there is something to be said for the general idea that it would be nice if casters were decoupled a bit from the 'if you don't want to prep it, scroll it or do without' paradigm and had more options for how they managed their resources. Not that the management aspect was removed entirely, mind, because I agree that's part of the fun of playing a caster in the first place. Still, nothing from Wizards yet has suggested to me that spell management will be removed.

I could easily see a system where a wizard "prepares" his per-encounter spells available in a period of time, for example. Fewer slots for such spells than he has spells to put in them means choices must be made. Not to mention, and I think this is important to point out...and I probably should have done so earlier...hee...but one of the stated goals of 4e is to reduce item-dependency. Not JUST on wands and scrolls, but all the other misc items that wizards normally accrue over their spans that cast this or that or provide constant bonuses. I think it's reasonable that if you want to reduce a wizard's need for external power in items, they're going to need some resources that don't evaporate on the scale of entire days of encounters. How, specifically, that will work, is still up in the air.

I think it's good we're talking about it, but lets keep the whole thing in perspective. It's way too soon to get -upset- about it. :)
 

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