This "resting at 9:05 AM" business
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
WayneLigon
Adventurer
Reynard said:
I've only had a couple groups try this with me. I just explain that it's physically impossible for you to get 8 hours of peaceful, restful sleep, be awake for three hours, then do it again. You might in fact get 'sleep' of some kind, but it won't be the peaceful, restful uninterrupted sleep that is required to be in the proper frame of mind and body for preparing spells.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Sometimes, it happens that the party runs into the significant events of the day realtively early, use up their resources, and have to hunker down/retreat/stop for the day...this makes sense enough. Other times, they go for quite some time without finding anything of significance (if they use their resources on minor encounters, so be it) until late in the day something big comes along.
Either way, any party has to recognize they can't expect to go through an entire adventure in one go; they'll have to rest sometime, and thus should plan accordingly.
As for "sleeping arrangements", it's assumed the party will keep a watch, so I get them to give me a watch order at the start of each adventure. After that, unless somepne specifically tells me they're sleeping in a specific spot in the room, if there's a night attack I just randomly determine where they happened to put their bedrolls within the camp area or room. And yes, if they rest in a dangerous area, bad things might (but won't necessarily always) happen...
Lanefan
Either way, any party has to recognize they can't expect to go through an entire adventure in one go; they'll have to rest sometime, and thus should plan accordingly.
As for "sleeping arrangements", it's assumed the party will keep a watch, so I get them to give me a watch order at the start of each adventure. After that, unless somepne specifically tells me they're sleeping in a specific spot in the room, if there's a night attack I just randomly determine where they happened to put their bedrolls within the camp area or room. And yes, if they rest in a dangerous area, bad things might (but won't necessarily always) happen...
Lanefan
Jack7
First Post
I make my parties rest after combat encounters, because real combat is exhausting - whether you are lugging sixty pounds of gear and a sword, or 90 pound rucks with modern combat equipment.
Combats (or fights in a game sense), are exhausting both physically and mentally.
But you don't sleep after a good fight, that's the last thing on your mind because of how wired you are from a real fight. Resting to regroup, counter, getting water or liquids, recovering one's normal senses (in combat or even near combat - where you are certain you will fight but it doesn't actually happen, when you're wound but never sprung or cut loose [actually being wound and never spun out is worse than a real fight]- one's senses become enhanced and then it takes awhile to come down again and regain a sense of normality and to regain your ground strategically and psychologically, rather than remain at point focus for tactical preparation or reaction), and so forth is really necessary if fights were real. Of course it's just a game, but of you think back to your own best game fights then you as a player will realize that you have probably also had intense periods of focused tactical concentration, where everything else in the game is forgotten while you concentrate on the combat situation at hand. (This is an excellent time to execute a staged ambush against a party as well, because of that sense of focused tactical consideration.) Now imagine the stress and strain of real combat, coupled with focused and extreme tactical consideration, the fog and disorientation of combat, and the possible psychological shock of injury, and the very real potential that you or your buddies will lose your life. then imagine it's not a game, but it's real. Well, if it were real then that's what the characters would be experiencing. Every combat encounter.
It's draining. To say the least. So recuperation is necessary, or would be if it were real.
Same for basic slogging. Carrying around gear, pack, weapons, etc. is draining and after a good hike it stiffens the body, slows the reflexes, taxes muscular strength and endurance, and weakens concentration. Therefore if it were real then rest would be an absolute necessity. I hike in real life and so I know this is how it is. The more you carry, and the farther, the less prepared you become to shift gears for combat and other surprises.
I also vad (what is today called urban exploration, though I also often explore rural or industrial ruins) and so I know from first hand experience, especially at night, that exploration of unknown sites and the possible dangers you must prepare and be on guard for, is also taxing on mental and physical resources and capabilities. You cannot simply walk into an unknown and uncharted area, anticipating danger, and breeze through it. Progress is slow, methodical, and exhausting if done correctly, and with the intent of avoiding, rather than merely enduring, catastrophe. And it is always better to avoid than endure catastrophe. If you make a mistake you might not recover or you might be so severely injured, by nothing more than negligence or failure to anticipate danger that you could become incapacitated. That might not be so bad if you could whip out a quick "cure everything spell" or a "mister miracle potion" but in real life it is also a daunting prospect - what could happen cause you're stupid or unprepared. So I make my party rest or regroup accordingly. Exhausted = stupid. Prepared = capable.
They never sleep without watch, because to do so is suicidal and asking for ambush and/or for an enemy to attempt sabotage, or worse. At the very least they could be easily surveiled or reconnoitered without even being aware that they were being targeted. And yet they must sleep. Rest is necessary. Necessary to regain physical stamina, necessary to recover mental concentration and focus, to heal from injury or exhaustion, to regain psychological control of temper and adaptability, and so forth.
However because of personal experience I also know that when one is in a dangerous environment, either purposely or accidentally, it stays in the back of ones' mind during all operations and activities. You never really rest in a completely relaxed fashion, you sleep lightly, your senses are highly tuned, your reflexes are primed, muscles stay basically tense and coiled, and so this gives a reactionary advantage, at least for a time. Eventually however always being on alert, even if just subconsciously, will lead to real exhaustion, dehydration (unless one is very careful), injury, unwarranted aggression, unnecessary mistakes and susceptibility to disease. Everyone will be affected differently based upon their own state of preparation, resistance, and experience to such situations and rates of exhaustion will likewise vary, but eventually everyone will succumb if the condition persists long enough.
How these factors are translated into the game is of course up to every DM, and since I don't really play the 3rd Edition game I can't say how, or if it is. I have adapted certain game mechanical aspects of that system to our game but as for other aspects we really mostly play 1st edition and leave situations like this open to the most realistic manner of depicting them possible,
Since a lot of us (my buddies and my players) have personal experience with similar conditions, situations, and/or training most of my players just personally understand how these things work and we don't really look at enforced rest as "regaining spells" or magical whoop-ee-dupe. but as a biological necessity of physical limitations during an operation/mission/venture. So my players rest because if they don't then I begin to penalize their reaction time, stamina, strength, reflexes, resistance, etc. To simulate what would really happen in those conditions.
What that really means to your concerns, I'm not sure. I guess it's up to you and your players. I'm just describing what we do.
On a side note I will say this much, since you eluded to the same basic theme: playing AD&D was very helpful to us when we were still kids in developing real world skills and understanding resource capabilities, deployment, and applications in any given situation. It helped prepare us for later training and activity where it became vital in the real world to prepare well ahead for nay particular assignment, mission, scenario, or even wargame training. So over time I developed, with the help of some of my friends, a hybrid of the game which stresses development of game skills and capabilities which mimics real world situations, and vice versa. That is to say we played the game as training for the real world and later sort of transformed the game to reflect the real world so that in-game scenarios became role play training for real world situations, and vice versa. So that the game (as much as possible given the limitations of the game) became training for possible real world situations, and the real world started to become more and more reflected in our games. My buddies and I often have had discussions about how the game prepared us for this or that thing in the real world. Not of course the ridiculous in-game elements of meeting fairies or slinging fear spells from rods of lordly might, but things like how can we use this spell or that piece of equipment or this bit of intelligence to prepare to maximize our chances of survival, or to anticipate this or that disaster. We leaned valuable tricks (and developed a few of our own) regarding ambush, tactical combat, the achievement of strategic objectives, sabotage, logistical supply lines, exploration and mapping skills, manhunting and tracking, spying, surveiling, gathering intelligence, filtering Intel, command and control, deployment, curtailing criminal activity, group and individual security, escape and evasion, pursuit, translation, communications, codes and cyphers, psychological warfare, leadership, disaster preparation and recovery, and so on and so forth.
I was very disappointed that the 3rd edition, which showed so much premise at first I thought, by incorporating skills and feats to a complex level eventually degenerated into a kind of superhero game and lost it's emphasis on survival and the imaginary and yet more concrete development of real skills which are theoretically valuable when applied to the real world. The later editions of the game became more and more about describing cool new sorts of outlandish skills than developing practical and useful ones which were kinda natural and intrinsic to the original game. Because the original game was less about "power" and escapism and more about survival and achievement and the exercise of practical and useful benefits conducive to real world success, at least in some situations. That's my opinion having observed the game for a long time.
I'm hopeful the new edition will move back more towards this older ethos of practicality and usefulness and away from the totally whiz-bang, "look at me, I'm a superstar" elements.
Now if you'll excuse me I've had about 4 to 5 hours sleep over the past 38 to 40 or so and being an old man (to many of you no doubt) I'm too exhausted to even properly edit this post.
Anyways, good luck. And good night.
Combats (or fights in a game sense), are exhausting both physically and mentally.
But you don't sleep after a good fight, that's the last thing on your mind because of how wired you are from a real fight. Resting to regroup, counter, getting water or liquids, recovering one's normal senses (in combat or even near combat - where you are certain you will fight but it doesn't actually happen, when you're wound but never sprung or cut loose [actually being wound and never spun out is worse than a real fight]- one's senses become enhanced and then it takes awhile to come down again and regain a sense of normality and to regain your ground strategically and psychologically, rather than remain at point focus for tactical preparation or reaction), and so forth is really necessary if fights were real. Of course it's just a game, but of you think back to your own best game fights then you as a player will realize that you have probably also had intense periods of focused tactical concentration, where everything else in the game is forgotten while you concentrate on the combat situation at hand. (This is an excellent time to execute a staged ambush against a party as well, because of that sense of focused tactical consideration.) Now imagine the stress and strain of real combat, coupled with focused and extreme tactical consideration, the fog and disorientation of combat, and the possible psychological shock of injury, and the very real potential that you or your buddies will lose your life. then imagine it's not a game, but it's real. Well, if it were real then that's what the characters would be experiencing. Every combat encounter.
It's draining. To say the least. So recuperation is necessary, or would be if it were real.
Same for basic slogging. Carrying around gear, pack, weapons, etc. is draining and after a good hike it stiffens the body, slows the reflexes, taxes muscular strength and endurance, and weakens concentration. Therefore if it were real then rest would be an absolute necessity. I hike in real life and so I know this is how it is. The more you carry, and the farther, the less prepared you become to shift gears for combat and other surprises.
I also vad (what is today called urban exploration, though I also often explore rural or industrial ruins) and so I know from first hand experience, especially at night, that exploration of unknown sites and the possible dangers you must prepare and be on guard for, is also taxing on mental and physical resources and capabilities. You cannot simply walk into an unknown and uncharted area, anticipating danger, and breeze through it. Progress is slow, methodical, and exhausting if done correctly, and with the intent of avoiding, rather than merely enduring, catastrophe. And it is always better to avoid than endure catastrophe. If you make a mistake you might not recover or you might be so severely injured, by nothing more than negligence or failure to anticipate danger that you could become incapacitated. That might not be so bad if you could whip out a quick "cure everything spell" or a "mister miracle potion" but in real life it is also a daunting prospect - what could happen cause you're stupid or unprepared. So I make my party rest or regroup accordingly. Exhausted = stupid. Prepared = capable.
They never sleep without watch, because to do so is suicidal and asking for ambush and/or for an enemy to attempt sabotage, or worse. At the very least they could be easily surveiled or reconnoitered without even being aware that they were being targeted. And yet they must sleep. Rest is necessary. Necessary to regain physical stamina, necessary to recover mental concentration and focus, to heal from injury or exhaustion, to regain psychological control of temper and adaptability, and so forth.
However because of personal experience I also know that when one is in a dangerous environment, either purposely or accidentally, it stays in the back of ones' mind during all operations and activities. You never really rest in a completely relaxed fashion, you sleep lightly, your senses are highly tuned, your reflexes are primed, muscles stay basically tense and coiled, and so this gives a reactionary advantage, at least for a time. Eventually however always being on alert, even if just subconsciously, will lead to real exhaustion, dehydration (unless one is very careful), injury, unwarranted aggression, unnecessary mistakes and susceptibility to disease. Everyone will be affected differently based upon their own state of preparation, resistance, and experience to such situations and rates of exhaustion will likewise vary, but eventually everyone will succumb if the condition persists long enough.
How these factors are translated into the game is of course up to every DM, and since I don't really play the 3rd Edition game I can't say how, or if it is. I have adapted certain game mechanical aspects of that system to our game but as for other aspects we really mostly play 1st edition and leave situations like this open to the most realistic manner of depicting them possible,
Since a lot of us (my buddies and my players) have personal experience with similar conditions, situations, and/or training most of my players just personally understand how these things work and we don't really look at enforced rest as "regaining spells" or magical whoop-ee-dupe. but as a biological necessity of physical limitations during an operation/mission/venture. So my players rest because if they don't then I begin to penalize their reaction time, stamina, strength, reflexes, resistance, etc. To simulate what would really happen in those conditions.
What that really means to your concerns, I'm not sure. I guess it's up to you and your players. I'm just describing what we do.
On a side note I will say this much, since you eluded to the same basic theme: playing AD&D was very helpful to us when we were still kids in developing real world skills and understanding resource capabilities, deployment, and applications in any given situation. It helped prepare us for later training and activity where it became vital in the real world to prepare well ahead for nay particular assignment, mission, scenario, or even wargame training. So over time I developed, with the help of some of my friends, a hybrid of the game which stresses development of game skills and capabilities which mimics real world situations, and vice versa. That is to say we played the game as training for the real world and later sort of transformed the game to reflect the real world so that in-game scenarios became role play training for real world situations, and vice versa. So that the game (as much as possible given the limitations of the game) became training for possible real world situations, and the real world started to become more and more reflected in our games. My buddies and I often have had discussions about how the game prepared us for this or that thing in the real world. Not of course the ridiculous in-game elements of meeting fairies or slinging fear spells from rods of lordly might, but things like how can we use this spell or that piece of equipment or this bit of intelligence to prepare to maximize our chances of survival, or to anticipate this or that disaster. We leaned valuable tricks (and developed a few of our own) regarding ambush, tactical combat, the achievement of strategic objectives, sabotage, logistical supply lines, exploration and mapping skills, manhunting and tracking, spying, surveiling, gathering intelligence, filtering Intel, command and control, deployment, curtailing criminal activity, group and individual security, escape and evasion, pursuit, translation, communications, codes and cyphers, psychological warfare, leadership, disaster preparation and recovery, and so on and so forth.
I was very disappointed that the 3rd edition, which showed so much premise at first I thought, by incorporating skills and feats to a complex level eventually degenerated into a kind of superhero game and lost it's emphasis on survival and the imaginary and yet more concrete development of real skills which are theoretically valuable when applied to the real world. The later editions of the game became more and more about describing cool new sorts of outlandish skills than developing practical and useful ones which were kinda natural and intrinsic to the original game. Because the original game was less about "power" and escapism and more about survival and achievement and the exercise of practical and useful benefits conducive to real world success, at least in some situations. That's my opinion having observed the game for a long time.
I'm hopeful the new edition will move back more towards this older ethos of practicality and usefulness and away from the totally whiz-bang, "look at me, I'm a superstar" elements.
Now if you'll excuse me I've had about 4 to 5 hours sleep over the past 38 to 40 or so and being an old man (to many of you no doubt) I'm too exhausted to even properly edit this post.
Anyways, good luck. And good night.
My experience so far in 3.x e is that we go until we run down to about 25% of our spells and then we flee to find a place to rest. Resources such as scrolls and wands are out of arcane spell casters pockets while healing scrolls and wands are party purchased, so it makes it difficult to purchase a CL7 wand of Magic Missiles at 12th lvl when you have a thousand gold in your pocket (not to mention replacing all those scrolls eaten up in the last big adventure).
We have had some interesting exhaust out out spells tails-
- TP through divination into a cave, then attack baddies inside and get our arses handed to us in three turns (everyone in single digits or dead). Retreat to the outside and heal up (using all our spells- not to mention the TP out cost us our TP back in spells).
- Adventure through hoping there would be a place to rest, fleeing and fighting, finally down to non combat spells for my wizard (our cleric is done- no scrolls). Everyone is still injured, the wizard has the most hp and Stone Skin up. He has to face three Large Red Dragons by himself! His rune staff allowed him to throw a Wall of Force up in front of one of the dragons that was chasing his people, causing him to crash head long into the wall- "hay, the fights over here!" Two NPCs (one former PC) stepped in and joined the fray, but my wizard was down to a hand full of hp.
the point is that sometimes there are good reasons for resting, and some times characters do wait to long (though I am sure Coyote6 will object that this is not the norm, but hay, I see my spell list and he doesn't
).
We have had some interesting exhaust out out spells tails-
- TP through divination into a cave, then attack baddies inside and get our arses handed to us in three turns (everyone in single digits or dead). Retreat to the outside and heal up (using all our spells- not to mention the TP out cost us our TP back in spells).
- Adventure through hoping there would be a place to rest, fleeing and fighting, finally down to non combat spells for my wizard (our cleric is done- no scrolls). Everyone is still injured, the wizard has the most hp and Stone Skin up. He has to face three Large Red Dragons by himself! His rune staff allowed him to throw a Wall of Force up in front of one of the dragons that was chasing his people, causing him to crash head long into the wall- "hay, the fights over here!" Two NPCs (one former PC) stepped in and joined the fray, but my wizard was down to a hand full of hp.
the point is that sometimes there are good reasons for resting, and some times characters do wait to long (though I am sure Coyote6 will object that this is not the norm, but hay, I see my spell list and he doesn't
).
Reynard said:
I agree. First, the problem of resting at 9.05 seems like a case of bad players and bad DMing to me, something for which no game system will ever be a cure, but also, it smells of bad adventure design, and then again, there is no cure for that.
Then, you don't have this problem in video games like say, Dungeon Siege, because your resources regenerate constantly. The difference between these games and D&D is that they are non-stops hack and slash where the scenario is often pretty weak.
Why provide a backstory ? These are for thinking people ! Give unlimited power, throw enough monsters and your players won't ever have enough time to think, nor your adventure designers. (Well even less than they do now, that is...)
So I don't see this as an advantage to roleplayers at all, though it will make things way easier for video game developpers for the next phat D&D 4 license.
Hussar
Legend
When I ran the World's Largest Dungeon, it was generally like this. Lots of time was spent exploring corridors and "opening the map" and then, after three, four encounters, they went back to a safe point and rested. Wash, rinse, repeat.
For all the talk of ambushes in a dungeon, well, I guess my guys were smart enough to rest behind secret doors most of the time. After all, if the door is secret, probably the other stuff doesn't know about it either. Poof, instant rest. Whack on an Arcane Lock and nothing is getting through.
I have to admit though, it never really bothered me too much. I just don't sweat stuff like that.
For all the talk of ambushes in a dungeon, well, I guess my guys were smart enough to rest behind secret doors most of the time. After all, if the door is secret, probably the other stuff doesn't know about it either. Poof, instant rest. Whack on an Arcane Lock and nothing is getting through.
I have to admit though, it never really bothered me too much. I just don't sweat stuff like that.
The "Rest at 9:05 am" syndrome is a factor of a few things:
-At lower levels, spellcasters don't have many spells, and other than spells, can't do anything useful.
-Combats are quick.
-Using expendable resources is highly discouraged by the game system.
If you're already at the dungeon at 9am, then I could easily see how, in less than an hour, you could engage in 4-6 tough encounters and exhaust your renewable resources, prompting you to retreat and rest (hopefully somewhere safe) until the next day, when you get all of those resources back.
I think changing to a per encounter system is brilliant at solving these issues, even if it is a little gamey. WOTC has recognized that the rest-at-10am syndrome is a direct result of the game system, and is doing something so that a party can adventure through more of the day while still having fun.
-At lower levels, spellcasters don't have many spells, and other than spells, can't do anything useful.
-Combats are quick.
-Using expendable resources is highly discouraged by the game system.
If you're already at the dungeon at 9am, then I could easily see how, in less than an hour, you could engage in 4-6 tough encounters and exhaust your renewable resources, prompting you to retreat and rest (hopefully somewhere safe) until the next day, when you get all of those resources back.
I think changing to a per encounter system is brilliant at solving these issues, even if it is a little gamey. WOTC has recognized that the rest-at-10am syndrome is a direct result of the game system, and is doing something so that a party can adventure through more of the day while still having fun.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
So, you had one character who could potentially run out of spells, and it's the arguably most overpowered class in the game, capable of meleeing toe-to-toe with a fighter at level 1 anyway?Wik said:
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Ease up on the insults and try to actually be constructive.Stereofm said:
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