Thoughts on Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage

[airwalkrr]

These classes bother me a little bit. Mostly it is their extremely limited spell lists. Additionally, I see spontaneous casters as having a natural knack for magic, which is not what these classes represent. They represent specific training one kind of magic: boom, beguiling, or necromantic. Anyway, back to the limited spell lists. If they were casters with an ingrained knack for a specific kind of magic, I could see their spell lists being limited by their personality or something. But besides the fact that it sounds kind of silly, I don't like it mechanically. So here are some ideas for these classes.

Instead of variant sorcerers, why not make them variant specialist wizards who are limited to specific schools or sub-schools of magic. For instance, a warmage can only learn spells from the evocation, conjuration, and transmutation lists, but not the subschools of calling, creation, healing, summoning, or teleportation. Plus, they are not limited to the sorcerer/wizard list. They can choose evocations, conjurations, and transmutations from the cleric or druid list too using the lower level wherever appropriate. You can get rid of the advanced learning class feature and just let them gain spells known like a wizard. They prepared spells like a wizard too. But they retain all their other class abilities (armored casting and the like).

The beguiler would be similar to the warmage, only with respect to illusion and enchantment spells. The dread necromancer could get any necromancy spells, plus conjuration (summoning) spells that summon undead and any spell with the fear descriptor.

What do you think of this variant? Would it make the classes too powerful or too weak?

 

[drexes]

Well I'm sure changing them spontaneous casters to practiced ones would have definite effect on balance. I think the challenge will then be simpl determining how many spells they shopuld know automatically at each level and such. Since the wizard doesn't know that many to begin with and he has a broad knowledge base, these classes coul;d know more given thier specialization, or less for the ame reason. It's really an intersting conundrum. I think spontaneous casting is the more powerful caster type early on, but after that the flexibility of the wizard takes over. In order to maintain the relative balance of the classes your mechanic would have to adjust to this in some way. As I see it, you would have to try to make the mechanic allow them to maintain that early on power and lessen as they level. Another part of me wants to say, once you have the number of spells correct it shouldn't effect balance much at all. Hrmm, now I need a beer thank you very much... Oddly enough, I actually think that there is a place for the warmage (and others) in the system just as he is, but I would also include the practiced caster equivalent, if it could be balanced. I have always liked the idea of multiple schools of magic. More practiced casting classes could easily reflect the different philosophies of multiple schools...Very Cool Indeed!

I look forward to seeing some hard and fast numbers eventually...hehe

Drexes

 

[smootrk]

I feel similarily. Casters that are supposed to be experts within a narrow range of spell types ought to have access to most/all the appropriate spells.

I went through a fair amount of frustration trying to get opinions on expanding the spell list for Beguilers by using material from the Spell Compendium (which was not used by the designers while designing the Beguiler's spell lists). You can see what others felt about the subject here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167210

I like the class concepts so far, but like yourself, I don't really get the 'limited spell list' mechanic. I think it would be better to be either like Bards with Known Spells, or as a true magic memorizer like wizards or clerics. Maybe allow them to have some sort of ability to spontaneously convert spells like clerics do for 'cure' spells.

 

[Nyaricus]

Well, I don't know about this practiced vs spontaneous spellcasters (don't liek 'em much anyways) but it is in my humble opinion that a class which specializes in Evocation spells should get all of them, as should an Illusionist/Enchanter get all illusions and enchantment spells and a necromancer should get all necromancy spells. It's only right, IMO. A warrior gets access to all of the standard weapons, right? (barring exotic weapons, sicne there is no such thing as an exotic spell in core D&D).

 

[airwalkrr]

Well, I don't know about this practiced vs spontaneous spellcasters (don't liek 'em much anyways) but it is in my humble opinion that a class which specializes in Evocation spells should get all of them, as should an Illusionist/Enchanter get all illusions and enchantment spells and a necromancer should get all necromancy spells. It's only right, IMO. A warrior gets access to all of the standard weapons, right? (barring exotic weapons, sicne there is no such thing as an exotic spell in core D&D).

That is more or less the way I feel. Even if you give someone access to EVERY necromancy spell, that doesn't even border on overpowering if those are the only spells they get.

And Smootrk, I saw your thread on the beguiler a while back. I agree with you. Part of the difficulty of just adding to their list is that, for a class that has a spell list that is set in stone, you open the door for a lot of variation if you start picking and choosing individual spells. My approach is to look at what the beguiler spells have in common and just allow all similar spells, but to balance that, they should have either a spells known list, or have to prepare and learn spells like a wizard. A vast majority of their spells are enchantments or illusions. All enchantments and illusions fulfill basically the same purpose, so why not allow them all.

Basically, I think of these classes as a hybrid specialist mage plus another class. A warmage is an evoker who can wear armor. A beguiler is a sneaky illusionist/enchanter. A dread necromancer is a priestly necromancer.

Ok, so let's crunch some numbers here. I'll start on the beguiler since Smootrk was asking about it earlier. The beguiler spells fall into the following categories.

Abjuration: break enchantment, dispel magic, freedom of movement, greater dispel magic, mind blank, nondetection, repulsion, solid fog, spell turning, undetectable alignment
Conjuration (Creation): fog cloud, glitterdust, mage armor [force], obscuring mist, phase door
Divination: arcane sight, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect secret doors, detect thoughts [mind-affecting], discern location, foresight, greater arcane sight, locate creature, moment of prescience, Rary's telepathic bond, read magic, see invisibility, true seeing
Divination (Scrying): clairaudience/clairvoyance
Enchantment: incite riot [mind-affecting]
Enchantment (Charm): charm monster [mind-affecting], charm person [mind-affecting], stay the hand [mind-affecting]
Enchantment (Compulsion): confusion [mind-affecting], crushing despair [mind-affecting], daze [mind-affecting], daze monster [mind-affecting], deep slumber [mind-affecting], demand [mind-affecting], dominate monster [mind-affecting], dominate person [mind-affecting], feeblemind [mind-affecting], halt [mind-affecting], hold monster [mind-affecting], hold person [mind-affecting], hypnotism [mind-affecting], inevitable defeat [mind-affecting], mass hold monster [mind-affecting], mass hold person [mind-affecting], mass suggestion [language-dependent, mind-affecting], mass whelm [mind-affecting], mind fog [mind-affecting], overwhelm [mind-affecting], power word blind [mind-affecting], power word stund [mind-affecting], power word kill [mind-affecting], rouse [mind-affecting], sleep [mind-affecting], suggestion [language-dependent, mind-affecting], touch of idiocy [mind-affecting], whelm [mind-affecting], whelming blast [mind-affecting]
Evocation: dancing lights [light], sending
Illusion (Figment): crown of veils, ghost sound, greater mirror image, major image, mirror image, phantom battle, silent image
Illusion (Figment, Glamer): mislead
Illusion (Glamer): blinding color surge, blur, disguise self, displacement, greater invisibility, invisibility, invisibility sphere, mass invisibility, misdirection, screen, seeming, silence, veil, zone of silence
Illusion (Pattern): color spray [mind-affecting], hypnotic pattern [mind-affecting], rainbow pattern [mind-affecting], scintillating pattern [mind-affecting], vertigo field
Illusion (Phantasm): friend to foe [mind-affecting], vertigo [fear, mind-affecting]
Illusion (Shadow): legion of sentinels, project image, shadow walk
Transmutation: ethereal jaunt, etherealness, expeditious retreat, glibness, halt, haste, knock, message [language-dependent], open/close, slow, spider climb, swift etherealness, time stop

Of the beguiler's spells, 10 are abjurations, 5 are conjurations, 14 are divinations, 33 are enchantments, 2 are evocations, 32 are illusions, and 13 are transmutations. Well over half (59.6%) of the beguiler's spells are enchantments or illusions so clearly these spells are their bread and butter. More than half of the illusion spells in the PH are beguiler spells, and the same goes for enchantments. Clearly enchantment and illusion are the beguiler's bread and butter.

Now what spells were left out? Necromancy was left out entirely. Evocation was practically ignored and I honestly believe most beguilers can do without those spells anyway. Conjuration makes a token appearance, but only in the form of spells in the creation subschool, and only a small minority of those to boot. The few abjurations that made their way in are primarily helpful in avoiding detection and negative magical effects. The transmutations are primarily beneficial in aiding the beguiler trying to get into difficult to reach places. And the divinations seem focused on scouting and awareness. Regarding the enchantment and illusion schools, most spells of the shadow subschool were left out (probably because they are mostly combat spells) and most phantasms were also left out. Plus most of the enchantments that boost the beguiler or his allies and symbols were left out as well.

I have no specific recommendations, but it would seem like the candidates that best fit the beguiler's spell list would be spells that have the following characteristics:
-enchantments of the charm or compulsion subschool that are not symbols and have negative impacts on the target(s)
-illusions in the glamer and figment subschool
-divinations that aid in scouting and prescience
-abjurations that negate harmful magical effects or help in avoiding detection
-transmutations that speed up the caster or allow access to hard-to-reach locations
-the occassional conjuration spell of the creation subschool that can cause confusion or miscommunication in foes (typically area effects); obscuring mist is a prime example of the kind of conjuration (creation) spells to allow

 

[smootrk]

I have no specific recommendations, but it would seem like the candidates that best fit the beguiler's spell list would be spells that have the following characteristics:
-enchantments of the charm or compulsion subschool that are not symbols and have negative impacts on the target(s)
-illusions in the glamer and figment subschool
-divinations that aid in scouting and prescience
-abjurations that negate harmful magical effects or help in avoiding detection
-transmutations that speed up the caster or allow access to hard-to-reach locations
-the occassional conjuration spell of the creation subschool that can cause confusion or miscommunication in foes (typically area effects); obscuring mist is a prime example of the kind of conjuration (creation) spells to allow

Your list of recomendations actually makes for a quite good guide to justifying additions to the Beguiler list. I will likely make use of this 'guide' for the player who has just begun exploring the Beguiler class.

I don't have anyone exploring the Dread Necromancer or Warmage class (as of yet), but a similar analysis would probably be an ideal intermediary step for folks to get used to the idea of expanding their spell lists, rather than changing the mechanics of the class (however bad the mechanics may seem to individuals like us).

I would also like to see your final thoughts on reworking the classes to use a more 'wizardly (or bardic, or clerical)' method of learning, memorizing, utilizing spell lists. Please post when you have your concepts finished (or ready for critique).

 

[Nyaricus]

Your list of recomendations actually makes for a quite good guide to justifying additions to the Beguiler list. I will likely make use of this 'guide' for the player who has just begun exploring the Beguiler class.

He speak language I speak too. Me like. Bunga.

IOW, Coolness