D&D 5E Thoughts on Handling Prestige Classes

[evil homer]

The original thinking on prestige classes, that they would be used as both a character development tool (by joining an organization within the campaign world, pledging loyalty etc) as well as an advancement tool is still somewhat valid in my opinion. Granting players a mechanical reward for engaging in character development isn't necessarily a bad thing. The question becomes how, without turning the whole thing into single level dips for abilities. I'm thinking about ways to translate the feeling of prestige classes into 5th without the horrible consequences they engendered in the 3.x games. I'm not looking to transfer the mechanical advantages on a 1:1 basis, more looking for a way to capture the feel of a given prestige class.

I've got a couple of thoughts on the issue:

(1) treat them as Archetypes- this has a number of advantages, including built in core archtypes to balance them against, but its primary limitation in my opinion is that is makes the prestige class mono-class in that only a single class would have access which may push people to multi-classing as a way to gain entry.

(2) treat them as seperate classes though of more limited scope and force players to multi-class into them. This is a more traditional treatment of the prestige class concept. I think I'd structure them as 10 level classes. You would have to balance any new prestige class well enough that a single dip wouldn't be worth doing.

(3) translate the prestige concept into a Feat. Given the greater scope of feats in 5th I think this is a viable option. I'm not sure how to go about this as you may not want characters pledging to multiple organizations. I suppose you could always write into it that X feat can't be taken if Y feat has already been taken as the two organizations are hated enemies or some such.

Thoughts?

 

[Pibby]

I believe the feat concept is the best way to express prestige classes from a mechanical standpoint. If the character would do well with the feat then they can take it, but if they wouldn't be that much better with the feat they can just enjoy another feat or ASI and just enjoy the roleplay benefits of being part of an organization. The feat itself shouldn't be any stronger than the ones currently present in the core books; it should be worth it enough for a player to try to roleplay their character into an organization that can give them that exclusive training.

 

[Paraxis]

I would go with option 3, translate the concept of them into feats. You might want to allow them to be attained in advance of the next possible feat the character could get, so to allow for them to be joined into as the story needs or develops. One of my issues with prestige classes has always been trying to line up gaining the level in the class with the right point in the story.

So if the party of heroes is currently all 6th level when the Harpers invite them to join, let them pick up the Harper feat then and just not get an ability increase/feat at 8th.

The other way would be to build them like feats, then just give them to the players as they join and treat them like "Other Rewards" from pg 227 in the DMG.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The original thinking on prestige classes, that they would be used as both a character development tool (by joining an organization within the campaign world, pledging loyalty etc) as well as an advancement tool is still somewhat valid in my opinion. Granting players a mechanical reward for engaging in character development isn't necessarily a bad thing. The question becomes how, without turning the whole thing into single level dips for abilities. I'm thinking about ways to translate the feeling of prestige classes into 5th without the horrible consequences they engendered in the 3.x games. I'm not looking to transfer the mechanical advantages on a 1:1 basis, more looking for a way to capture the feel of a given prestige class.

I've got a couple of thoughts on the issue:

(1) treat them as Archetypes- this has a number of advantages, including built in core archtypes to balance them against, but its primary limitation in my opinion is that is makes the prestige class mono-class in that only a single class would have access which may push people to multi-classing as a way to gain entry.

(2) treat them as seperate classes though of more limited scope and force players to multi-class into them. This is a more traditional treatment of the prestige class concept. I think I'd structure them as 10 level classes. You would have to balance any new prestige class well enough that a single dip wouldn't be worth doing.

(3) translate the prestige concept into a Feat. Given the greater scope of feats in 5th I think this is a viable option. I'm not sure how to go about this as you may not want characters pledging to multiple organizations. I suppose you could always write into it that X feat can't be taken if Y feat has already been taken as the two organizations are hated enemies or some such.

Thoughts?

I think it depends on the organization in question.

1) I might go with a subclass if the organization is fairly accessible and narrow in scope. For example, the School of Evocation could be a unique society of wizards devoted to that school of magic (warlocks and sorcerers need not apply). On the other hand, if the organization accepts people from multiple classes or is difficult to gain access to, I'd use another appraoch. In the former it becomes a pain to design multiple archetypes based around the same theme, and in the latter the characters might not gain access to the organization by the time they choose their archetypes (this would be especially problematic for clerics and sorcerers, who choose theirs at level 1).

2) This is probably the best way to go, although I'd make the majority between 3 to 5 level climbs. That would prevent the prestige class from taking too much away from the primary class, while also making it so that the abilities of the prestige class can be packed with flavor. I mean, if you have a concept for a prestige class that's so overflowing with cool ideas that you couldn't possibly fit them into anything less than 10 levels, go for it. If you find yourself adding filler though, shorten the progression. The nice thing about this one is that regardless of when enter the society, they can start taking the prestige class with their next level.

3) This isn't a bad way to go if the organization has small benefits. The downside is that if you join them right after gaining an ability score increase, you're probably looking at 4 more levels before you can reap the benefits.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think I would limit Prestige classes either the way they always have been, along the lines of multi-classing and replacing further levels in your existing class, or depending on how robust they are, use them as a level 20+ advancement option.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, I think the idea of special features linked to an organization and advancement is a good one. You could even use the DMG's Renown system for setting prerequisites.

I find that most 3e-era PrC's fit into feats. The timing is about right (first feat at 4th level, PrC's were about 6th...), the abilities are usually just specializations, and the "base class" still provides much of the character meat.

If you use feats with a Renown requirement, that would stop you from getting feats from multiple organizations.

The limitation on feats is that it doesn't necessarily scale with higher rank (feats are not really tier-dependent...though a potential feat could evolve over time, I suppose!). Which isn't the BIGGEST problem, especially if these orgs are not defining forces in your game over 20 levels. A few levels to gain renown, a feat to show the special training they've offered...etc....

I've also played around with the idea of PrC's as magic items....that is, being able to attune to an organization simply by belonging to it. That has some scaling (common/uncommon/rare/very rare), but it might compete for attunement slots with other things.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Feats, definitely. I feel like 5E's omitting of PrCs is a feature, not a bug. I liked the concept when 3E first came out, but I quickly came to feel otherwise.

As far as the problem of not getting feats often enough, well, the first feat offered by the organization could be a bonus. You did, after all, say that you were fine with mechanical benefits for IC development.

 

[doctorhook]

Chop up your PrCs (and Paragon Paths) into their most important features. Unique mechanical features should be feats. "Fluff" features should be treated like new "story abilities" (i.e.: the kind of benefits that come from backgrounds). Both should be restricted to characters who've completed significant in-world achievements.

For example, if you wanted to bring the dragon disciple (from 3.5E) to 5E, make a feat that grants natural attacks, a limited breath weapon, and maybe a single spell slot. (Maybe create an additional feat if you want the features to become more powerful.) Make "story benefit" that the character can expect a friendlier/more-deferential reaction from dragon-worshipers. Require the character to accomplish a specific dragon-magic-feat before they're allowed to access any of this. Boom, dragon disciple.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hmmmm.....

Dragon Disciple
Prerequisite: The ability to speak Draconic
You have begun to take on the body of a dragon. You gain the following benefits:

• You gain a +1 bonus to Strength.
• You have claws and a bite. These are natural weapons you are proficient in that deal 1d6 piercing damage (bite) or slashing damage (claws). You can use these attacks instead of unarmed attacks.
• You have wings. These give you a fly speed of 30 ft.

Dragon Apotheosis
Prerequisite: The ability to speak Draconic
You have learned to channel your inner dragon. You gain the following benefits:

• You gain a +1 bonus to Constitution.
• When you aren't wearing armor, your AC equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
• You have a breath weapon. It is either a 5-ft. by 40 ft. line, or a 15-ft. cone that deals acid, lightning, fire, poison, or cold damage. Creatures in your breath weapon can make a Dexterity save for half damage (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier). Your breath weapon deals 2d6 damage when you are level 1-5, 3d6 damage when you are level 6-10, 4d6 damage when you are level 11-15, and 5d6 damage when you are level 16+. You can use this breath weapon as your action, and once you use it, you can't use it again until you complete a short rest or a long rest.

​

Doesn't feel too bad as two. Someone who is a dragonborn dragon sorcerer just takes the Dragon Disciple feat, someone who still needs those qualities takes both, someone who joins the Dragon Disciples could take either one they want.

 

[steeldragons]

As Feats, I think it is a simple thing to stipulate that they can't be taken before...what's the 2nd feat level, 8th? Make it a minimum 8th level prereq an stipulate them as "Prestige Feats" with the underlying mechanic that a PC can not belong to more than 1 Prestige Feat. Problems solved.

I would go a similar route if they were made sub-class/archetypes. Stipulate these are not "take at 2nd/3rd level" subclasses. These are the 8th-10th level subclasses...the "Prestige Archetypes" that can't be chosen prior to X level and require you to be ABC subclasses first.

So, AS HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE, an Eldritch Knight Fighter, Hunter Ranger, Arcane Trickster Rogue or any class with the Sharpshooter Feat (so a minimum of 4th level in most cases), could become/take the "Arcane Archer Prestige Sub-Class" at 8th level in lieu of a 2nd feat.

EDIT: So now the whining can begin "If I want to play an Arcane Archer I should be able to [i.e. "the game must let me or it sucks!"] from 1st level!"