D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Sorinth]

I think it’s fine to leave that up to inference. The bigger problem IMO is that the hide action doesn’t say you lose the invisible condition if an enemy gains line of sight to you.

But then how do you define LoS? There will be situations where you have LoS to someone but still not see them because they've camouflaged themselves well, or because only a small portion is visible, etc...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But then how do you define LoS? There will be situations where you have LoS to someone but still not see them because they've camouflaged themselves well, or because only a small portion is visible, etc...

I think camouflaged should be mentioned somewhere explicitely. Would also help with creatures like twig blights or gargoyles.

Just something like: or if you are somehow camouflaged to blend in with your surrounding.

 

[Charlaquin]

This is actually debatable. If you lose it immediately, you can't actually use it in combat.

I disagree, since it only requires 3/4 cover or heavy obscuration, you can attack with advantage from your hiding place

Maybe "at the end of the turn".

That would be acceptable to me. Even better if you make the roll to remain hidden at the end of your turn, rather than to become hidden in the first place.

That’s the thing about stealth rules, they’re generally only useful in circumstances where you wouldn’t need them anyway, since being invisible when no one can see you is redundant. My preference would be for hiding to just be the natural result of moving to a location in which you can’t be seen, and for stealth checks to be made to see if you can successfully move from one such location to another (or, you know, to behind an enemy you intend to backstab, or whatever) without being noticed in the interim.

But let’s just say: we mostly agree, but need to talk about the exact details later.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I disagree, since it only requires 3/4 cover or heavy obscuration, you can attack with advantage from your hiding place

3/4 is within line of sight...

That would be acceptable to me. Even better if you make the roll to remain hidden at the end of your turn, rather than to become hidden in the first place.

Yes.

That’s the thing about stealth rules, they’re generally only useful in circumstances where you wouldn’t need them anyway, since being invisible when no one can see you is redundant. My preference would be for hiding to just be the natural result of moving to a location in which you can’t be seen, and for stealth checks to be made to see if you can successfully move from one such location to another (or, you know, to behind an enemy you intend to backstab, or whatever) without being noticed in the interim.

Seems like a good idea.
Usually I use it that way more or less.
And if you do, that takes an action. As you have to wait for the right circumstance. I don't let characters or enemies hidden all the time and I let them reroll when circumstances change.

 

[Charlaquin]

But then how do you define LoS? There will be situations where you have LoS to someone but still not see them because they've camouflaged themselves well, or because only a small portion is visible, etc...

This is where DM discretion comes into play. The rules already say the DM determines when circumstances are appropriate for hiding, which I think is as it should be. The problem is that they don’t leave the same room for the DM to determine when a character is no longer hidden. I think being unable to hide should be the default state, and DM discretion should allow exceptions to that default, where the current rules try to do the opposite.

 

[Charlaquin]

3/4 is within line of sight...

Yes, but the current rules for the hide action mention it as an explicit case of a circumstance in which you can hide. I was using “an enemy gains line of sight to you” as kind of a shorthand for “when you no longer meet the requirements to take the Hide action.”

Yes.

Seems like a good idea.
Usually I use it that way more or less.
And if you do, that takes an action. As you have to wait for the right circumstance. I don't let characters or enemies hidden all the time and I let them reroll when circumstances change.

Makes sense to me, I like that ruling.

 

[MerricB]

Want to have more fun?

You already know about the ridiculous interpretation of the rules that you can't see someone who hid who is walking straight towards you in the open.

Believe it or not, there's a line in the DMG that supports that interpretation.

So, give me a monster with (say) a passive Perception of 9 and a Perception check of -1. The rogue has rolled a 20 on their Stealth check to become invisible (hidden).

Here's the line in the DMG:
"Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible"

You thought noticing the "hidden" creature walking right towards you was trivially easy? Wrong!



Another fun thing: The rules never define what "line of sight" means. This one gets very interesting with the Fear spell, where you only get to make the (recurring) saving throw if you end your turn where you don't have line of sight to the creature. Do you have line of sight if you close your eyes?

Cheers!

 

[mamba]

it seemed like half of the player base thought you could stroll right past a guard after hitting that DC 15 Stealth check.

more like they were complaining that that is what the rule said, it wasn't what they wanted to happen...

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Want to have more fun?

You already know about the ridiculous interpretation of the rules that you can't see someone who hid who is walking straight towards you in the open.

Believe it or not, there's a line in the DMG that supports that interpretation.

So, give me a monster with (say) a passive Perception of 9 and a Perception check of -1. The rogue has rolled a 20 on their Stealth check to become invisible (hidden).

Here's the line in the DMG:
"Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible"

You thought noticing the "hidden" creature walking right towards you was trivially easy? Wrong!

Ok - late to the party here but... isn't it rather obvious that the "hidden" creature walking towards you is no longer "hidden". What DM is going to rule otherwise?

Another fun thing: The rules never define what "line of sight" means. This one gets very interesting with the Fear spell, where you only get to make the (recurring) saving throw if you end your turn where you don't have line of sight to the creature. Do you have line of sight if you close your eyes?

Cheers!

Line of sight is defined on p45 of the DMG:

Line of Sight​

To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.

 

[MerricB]

Ok - late to the party here but... isn't it rather obvious that the "hidden" creature walking towards you is no longer "hidden". What DM is going to rule otherwise?



Line of sight is defined on p45 of the DMG:

Line of Sight​

To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.

Not in the PHB. Huh.

I hate the organisation of these rules!