Threatening Unarmed?

[IceBear]

What I don't understand is why whenever the Sage has been asked this question he hasn't said - "Oh, but you could make an unarmed AoO instead". Since he hasn't, and the rulebooks state no threatening with a missle weapon, I'll play that way. If someone with a bow wants to trip someone running past him, as the DM I'd probably allow it but then he's not ready to use his bow the next round.

Edit: Removed some stuff that have no place on friendly forums

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

Point being exactly what. I was previously scolded for injecting reality, so I will do the same now. "You are scolded for injecting reality into the discussion."

YOU were the one who brought up real life, so I humored you and answered in kind. Now that you don't like the answer, you are saying not to use it. You are being a hypocrite, and your arguements are without value.

Have a nice life.

 

[Caliban]

What I don't understand is why whenever the Sage has been asked this question he hasn't said - "Oh, but you could make an unarmed AoO instead". Since he hasn't, and the rulebooks state no threatening with a missle weapon, I'll play that way. If someone with a bow wants to trip someone running past him, as the DM I'd probably allow it but then he's not ready to use his bow the next round.

Edit: Removed some stuff that have no place on friendly forums

IceBear

Actually, the Sage says that you can't make unarmed AoO's, period (unless you have improved unarmed strike). I don't believe that position is supported by the Core Rules, but I do agree that the Core Rules do not intend for you to threaten when wielding a ranged weapon or threaten within 5' when wielding a pole arm.

 

[IceBear]

Actually, the Sage says that you can't make unarmed AoO's, period (unless you have improved unarmed strike). I don't believe that position is supported by the Core Rules, but I do agree that the Core Rules do not intend for you to threaten when wielding a ranged weapon or threaten within 5' when wielding a pole arm.

Oh, I'm 100% on board with you Caliban. I know what the Sage said about unarmed AoO, and I agree with you.

IceBear

 

[mkletch]

Actually, the Sage says that you can't make unarmed AoO's, period (unless you have improved unarmed strike). I don't believe that position is supported by the Core Rules, but I do agree that the Core Rules do not intend for you to threaten when wielding a ranged weapon or threaten within 5' when wielding a pole arm.

So when the Sage and the Core Rules are clearly at odds, which one triumphs? I'll go core rules, until there is an official errata.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

If someone with a bow wants to trip someone running past him, as the DM I'd probably allow it but then he's not ready to use his bow the next round.

And how exactly do you become ready with the bow during the next round. "Take the weapon held ready in your hand and become ready to use that weapon" sounds like a free action to me.

-Fletch!

 

[Datt]

wrong button.

 

[IceBear]

And IF YOU READ MY POST you'll see that I said the same thing. However, I am with Caliban in that I don't think the rules intend for you to make AoO while armed with a missle weapon. My "ready the bow" was a pseudo rule to compromise between what you're saying and Caliban.

It is stated so many times in the OFFICAL rules (and in the FAQ which is the OFFICAL RULES CLARIFICATION) that you don't threaten with a missle weapon, and yet no where do they make the clarification that you COULD threaten with your unarmed attacks while using the missle weapon.

Given that they explicitly stated that missle weapons don't threaten any squares, you would think they would have pointed out that someone moving in the 5ft squares around you, while armed with a bow would cause an AoO.

OH! I just rememebered in D20 Modern, there is a diagram with AoO, and they show a PC holding a gun and someone moving through her threat zone and they specially point out that she DOESN'T get an AoO. Even more proof that this is how the rules were intended to me.

Hmmmm - looking at the D20 Modern SRD gives me:

A character can use a melee weapon to make attacks of opportunity whenever the conditions for such an attack are met (see Provoking an Attack of Opportunity, below). In addition, a character can make attacks of opportunity with unarmed attacks if the character’s unarmed attacks count as armed (see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks).

and

Combat Martial Arts
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks.
Normal: Without this feat, a character deals only 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Unarmed attacks normally provoke attacks of opportunity, and unarmed combatants cannot normally make attacks of opportunity.

I guess they decided to go with The Sage's thinking on AoO after all.


IceBear

 

[mkletch]

YOU were the one who brought up real life, so I humored you and answered in kind. Now that you don't like the answer, you are saying not to use it. You are being a hypocrite, and your arguements are without value.

It was IceBear's estimation that I was using 'real life', but what other example do you want? We are working in an area that some people feel is unclear within the rules.

Some other posters have laid out logical arguments, quoting sections of the rules, and demonstrating how they interlock to say "AoOs while unarmed are OK".

Yet others have simply decried these logical presentations, calling names, ranting and raving, but not offering anything useful in return. These are the posts that are without value.

So, it comes to this one, minor question: Bow or reach weapon, can you AoO unarmed. There is disagreement (it is a discussion board afterall), and could go either way. The fact that the Sage has blatantly contradicted the core rules (which you agree with) makes his other pronouncements on this subject questionable. Are these rulings based on core or non-core/non-official material? As for the intent of the rules, that is a dangerous area to tread upon. Either it is clearly stated, or it is not. If it is not clearly stated, then any arguments based upon that are without value.

From the SRD, Combat Basics
A combatant threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a combatant's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a combatant.
A combatant normally threatens all adjacent spaces. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area.

From the SRD, Equipment I
A character can use a two-handed projectile weapon (such as a bow or a crossbow) effectively in two hands.

There is no section of rules that deals with weapons being ready or not ready for use, so that is discarded as irrelevant. If I am not going to use the bow or longspear, I do not need two hands. That means I have a hand free. If I can make an AoO when unarmed, and I have a hand that is unarmed, I can make an attack with that.

As for rules intent, it is largely irrlevant in this case (or any other). For most characters, they are better off skipping the unarmed AoO unless in truly desperate straits. Only a few rare cases (fighters that have specialized in unarmed combat for some reason, and of course monks) really matter. If the archer, sorcerer w/ crossbow or longspearman wishes to make an unarmed AoO, more power to them. The return AoO for the untrained unarmed strike is likely to cost more than they got in return.

Have a nice life.

I'll try. You too.

-Fletch!

 

[NPC]

I'm with IceBear and Calliban on this one.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to use a ranged weapon or a reach weapon then you don't threaten the 5 foot area around you. I think that's the intent of the Core Rules.

I don't like to parse the combat round so closely that we start worrying about which hand the polearm is in when you draw your arrow to poke someone while holding the bow with your foot and readying an action to shoot your mouth dart. Blech.