PeterWeller
First Post
Obviously, we are supposed to believe that Dave Noonan is actually Nibenay.
THREE elven races, plus half-elves ... but they say gnomes have no niche?!
- Thread starter Driddle
- Start date
FireLance said:
Hmm. I thought it was reasonably clear. They are being disingenuous. They could have done gnomes, had they wanted to, and spent the time to do it. For whatever reason (I suspect it comes down to elves sell more than gnomes), they didn't have any real interest in doing so. After all, if they're in the MM, they must have come up with some niche for them: it seems unlikely that will just be a page that says 'Gnomes. The hidden people. No one knows where they live or what they are like, but here are some random stats'
PeterWeller
First Post
Voss said:
Are you assuming a monster manual presentation is as detailed and focused as a PHB one?
The developers have stated numerous times that they wanted each PHB1 race to fill a very distinct and exclusive niche. In R&C they stated that none of the niches they came up with for Gnomes were distinct or exclusive. Ispo facto, Gnomes don't get to be in PHB1. The MM, on the other hand, contains a much broader variety of races and monsters, many of which share the same niche (Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, and Bugbears for example), so Gnomes can be included in that. I bet the only reason Gnomes are even in MM1 is so people who really like them can play them, even though the developers don't believe their current version of the race is up to PHB standards.
Now, we can speculate all we want about why Gnomes weren't developed into a distinct and exclusive niche. Maybe marketing deemed that face time be given to more flashy and "cool" races. Maybe the developers were too caught up thinking about other races. Maybe the developers just hate Gnomes. Maybe they don't really hate Gnomes, but they do really hate people who play Gnomes. Maybe by trying to stay true to what Gnomes were in previous editions, they developed a concept that they didn't feel was up to PHB snuff. Whatever the reason, the statement that Gnomes aren't in PHB1 because Gnomes don't have a unique and distinct enough niche in the world to be presented as one of the "core" 4E races isn't in any way disingenuous.
A Passing Maniac
First Post
I can understand the "race has no niche of its own" argument, but in the case of the gnome I personally am not sure it really applies. For 4e, the designers carved off the arcanist side of the elf to create a new racial niche, that of the inherently-magical race with connections to the fey. It seems to me that this is a role that gnomes, being mischievous illusionists with innate spell-like abilities (in addition to being inspired by subterranean Germanic fey), would have fit wonderfully.
PeterWeller
First Post
Only the first reason would cause the statement, "Gnomes aren't in PHB1 because we haven't developed them to the standards we set for PHB1 races," to be insincere because then it wouldn't be presenting the root cause of why they're not in the book. The other reasons, while pointing to why they weren't able to develop Gnomes up to snuff, don't effect in any way the statement that Gnomes aren't in PHB1 because they weren't up to PHB1 standards.
fuindordm
Adventurer
FireLance said:
I'm not disagreeing with you from the fluff/story point of view... you make good points.
I just find this one statement amusing. Gnomes are thought of as second-class in these niches, yet they have mechanical advantages to back up their role. Elves, however, do not.
What makes a gnome "natural"? They can speak to animals.
What makes an elf "natural"? Maybe that bonus to saving throws against sleep and charm (traditional fey magic)?
What makes a gnome magical? They get illusionist cantrips.
What makes an elf magical? Ummm... oh yeah, that favored class thing.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Nobody said that the 3.x version of Elf did fit perfectly what people expect from Elves.fuindordm said:
Which is either
- Back to the Nature tree-hugging archer
- Powerful and noble spellcaster
And often enough, both.
I think a good niche for the Gnomes might really be that of the tinkerer - tinkering is more than just creating good armor and weapons (like Dwarves do), but also creating, explosives, mechanical devices, flying machines and so on.
But I do not think that the resulting "steampunk" gnomes fit into the D&D core setting concepts.
Chris_Nightwing
First Post
Gnomes are amazing illusionists and good at keeping secrets. Gnomes don't really exist, they just appear to, but nobody knows that of course, so they actually have an impact on the world.
