THREE elven races, plus half-elves ... but they say gnomes have no niche?!

[drothgery]

Gnome feelings: You know, gnomes are not actually that unpopular. They are not like elves, but then again what is (answer: humans without mechanical penalties). They have their fans, along with their haters. (and what is with that hate, its just sort of pathetic).

It's probably worth noting that at least in my case, the one gnome PC I played was an Eberron gnome, and any gnomes I'd run again or gnome NPCs I'd run would be as well. And I expect when a full PC treatment of gnomes shows up, they're going to be a lot like Eberron gnomes. But Eberron gnomes have a lot of 'steampunk' in them as artificers and elemental binders, which the designers didn't want in core.

 

[TwoSix]

The really sad thing about WoW Gnomes is that WoW Goblins do their schtick better.

Time is money, friend.

 

[PeterWeller]

It's not that they didn't have potential to be used. It's that the designers chose to ignore it.

I love your logic. Basically, you're saying they're lying when they say they weren't satisfied with what they had with Gnomes. You're saying they're lying when they present some of the niches they came up with for Gnomes and why they thought those niches weren't up to their standards. You're saying that the R&C article is just a smokescreen to divert attention away from the real sinister motives behind Gnomes' exclusion from PHB1.

Well, where's your evidence, chief? I'm thinking you're just moaning and acting all sad panda while bringing up spurious claims about the dishonesty of the 4E design crew because, God forbid, someone makes a logical decision that you disagree with.

 

[HeinorNY]

The really sad thing about WoW Gnomes is that WoW Goblins do their schtick better.

Nah, goblins can blow up things better, but gnomes do the coolest gadgets.
Mechanostriders.
Battle chickens.
Gnomish shrink ray.
Gnomeregan.
..
...
....

OMFG D&D gnomes suck!

 

[Driddle]

I love your logic.

Thank you, fellow chief.

You're saying ... You're saying ... You're saying that the R&C article is just a smokescreen to divert attention away from the real sinister motives behind Gnomes' exclusion from PHB1.

Sinister motives? No.
LAZY. Lacking creativity and effort.

Please try to avoid repeating what people are saying in your own words. You're not very good at getting the intent right. It's insulting.

 

[jaer]

If elves were given one niche over the other (magic vs nature), there would have been a lot of complaints about WotC "ruining my view of elves!" but there is enough distinction between the two types to make them very different (they don't want the moon/sun elf difference - races are meant to have more character impact than just some different stats).

They made two races to satisfy people, and to me, that makes sense.

Gnomes have had a few niches in D&D. Sometimes they are close to nature (speak with animals - the lawn gnome type like in that old Nickeloden cartoon), other times they are the science guys (either alchmical or engineering as in Dragonlance), sometimes they are a very magical race (great with illusions), and they most recently they are the pranksters, jokesters, and singers. Even in 3.5, they were muddled: illusionists (+1 DC), bards (favored), achlemists (+2 craft), speak with animals (1/day), meele (bonus vs golbins and kobolds, and trained to dodge giants), and dwarfy (+2 con). They are a mix of every gnome stereotype, and can't focus on anything.

Gnomes could be split into several racial niches:
Natural - but elves got that

Magical - elves got general magic, but gnomes could get illusions/shadowy, but the PH1 doesn't seem to be focuses in on that, so why have a race good at something that there is no class for yet?

Science - again, Science as a power source is not core. WotC might do a book about it later (Eberron, after all hinges on a lot of science), but they didn't want this to be PH1 info. If they don't do it, surely a 3rd party pub will, and gnomes might take center stage in such a book.

The bard/trickster - people seemed to hate that when it came out in 3.5, but maye it would work. Oh shoot, bards might not be PH1 either! Once more, a class that would play to this gnomish niche might not be PH1 so why have the gnome there?

Could WotC have banged out a gnomish niche? Yes, they probably could have done so for release, but they would have needed to bang out more than just the racial niche, but the rest of the class niche that the gnomes would fill. Why have a good illusionist wizard if illusions are not fully fleshed out? Why have a great tinkerer if science is not fleshed out? Fleshing out 1 race might have been possible, but that race would have sat in a void.

I say let the gnome come out when there is enough crunch and fluff to support the whole race (possible two races: illusionist and tech).

 

[Lord Fyre]

The lowest common degnominator

Actually, if you follow the logic of "Gnomes have no niche" one could actually justify cutting any -or all - of the races except humans.

Humans, as the "adaptable" race can and would fill any missing niches.



(Ooh - make gnomes specialists in travel spells! They could even have a spokesgnome and a website! What would we call it? . . . )

 

[PeterWeller]

Sinister motives? No.
LAZY. Lacking creativity and effort.

Please try to avoid repeating what people are saying in your own words. You're not very good at getting the intent right. It's insulting.

Except that they did put effort into it. Perhaps not as much as you wish they would have, but then it was their decision, after seeing the fruits of their effort, that further effort wasn't fruitful. Your insinuation is that there was a reason they didn't put that effort forth, or you're insulting the developers because you don't agree with the decision they came to. Either way, it's probably a clue to thicken your skin.

 

[Barastrondo]

From a design point of view, I can sort of see the argument that gnomes have had several shots at a distinct niche, but none of them have been unqualified successes. The closest has been the tinker gnome, which has grabbed a lot of mindshare, but even that's a qualified success: either you love them or you hate them, and they managed to pull quite an amount of hate. Elves don't have that problem. Their subraces and even half-elves are successful all over the place, from Warhammer to manga & anime. There are definitely elf haters, but they're pretty far outclassed by those who don't hate elves and in fact think guys like Legolas and Drizzt are pretty cool. Gnomes have neither the iconic characters (their greatest mindshare in the public eye involves pointy red hats) nor the love/hate ratio.

So the question becomes whether you lock onto one of the previous "niches" given to gnomes, none of which have succeeded as well as that of any of the other races, or you try to do a brand new one (or very distinct fusion of previous ideas) and hope that this is the one that becomes the unqualified success. And if you do the latter, I can see how you might want that extra year to get it right.

(Me, I use gnomes in the Paracelsian sense in my present fantasy game; they look more like Crocodile Games' To-Tanem than anything else. But I will freely admit that this is a highly specialized use, and wouldn't be any more marketable.)

 

[PeterWeller]

So the question becomes whether you lock onto one of the previous "niches" given to gnomes, none of which have succeeded as well as that of any of the other races, or you try to do a brand new one (or very distinct fusion of previous ideas) and hope that this is the one that becomes the unqualified success. And if you do the latter, I can see how you might want that extra year to get it right.

Exactly. Taking their time to really make Gnomes stand out and shine is something they should be lauded for, not condemned. Claiming that this is lazy design is ridiculous. It's the exact opposite. Throwing a half assed version in the PHB because one has been in the PHB since 1E would have been lazy design. Their stated intent is to make every race really stand out and mean something as a unique entity in the world. They have yet to come up with a Gnome that does that, so they're going to wait until they have. Now, making that Gnome might not be priority number one for them, but that becomes a question of priorities, and it seems like really, really awesome Gnomes are low on a lot of players' lists.