Pathfinder 1E Throwing a tiny ally... how could this work?

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
I'm playing a Gnome Alchemist. Just hit level 2, taking the Feral Mutagen discovery, and took Reduce Person as my next formulae.

Using Reduce Person would drop my PC to under 5 lbs (4.375 lbs). I'm trying to figure the mechanics of a "Fastball Special" (Wolverine & Colossus signature move from X-men comic).

If I delayed my turn, the 7' tall Orc Fighter in the party picked me up and threw me at the enemy....

...Would I be able to do a full round attack because the ally would be responsible for my movement?

...Would I be able to make a bite/claw/claw attack at the enemy before hitting the ground, or would I bounce off the enemy and fall down?

...Is there a skill check to make to land on the enemy without hitting the ground?

...What would the range of throwing a tiny ally be?

Also, can a sling launch a bullet weighting 4.375 lbs? If not a sling, any other weapon?
EDIT: Sling Glove might do the trick, a fist sized rock should match the weight.
 
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The first question is why would you want to? Somehow I think certain laws of physics would be involved when you hit involving force, etc. I would not want to be your gnome with all the broken bones and destroyed internal organs and tissue damage. Unlike a fastball you are made of flesh and bone. I would double the damage per 10' and consider it falling damage! Triple if going fast enough!
 

It has been my observation that the phrase "Laws of Physics" really doesn't apply to these games.
3.5 possessed the Fling Ally feat. Fantasy allows for such crazy ideas.
What I'm asking is how might Pathfinder make this happen?
 

That is where we will have to agree to disagree then. When you throw out the basic laws of physics for the sake of a game, then fantasy has taken too far a stretch for my liking.
 

That is where we will have to agree to disagree then. When you throw out the basic laws of physics for the sake of a game, then fantasy has taken too far a stretch for my liking.

Clearly this poster has never played Exalted!

As for the notion of throwing an ally in PF, given that it's partly (and in many places mostly) compatible with 3.5, you could try just importing the Fling Ally feat- or even just its mechanics. But to answer your actual questions from the first post, here's my personal take:

(1) I would suggest No to the Full Attack- because the combat rules do not generally respect the idea of involuntary movement "not counting." For proof of this, read about what happens when you start a Really Long Jump (for example, over a chasm) that exceeds your normal ground Speed (or just what you have left that round). Literally, the character is assumed to be suspended in space at end of turn, and there until next round when the jump concludes. During the round when the jump concludes, the conclusion of the jump counts as movement, even though the character had no choice but to finish the jump that round- the character cannot get a Full Attack after landing. I would suggest, however, that in the case of this Tiny Gnome being thrown by an ally, that the Gnome can exceed his normal move rate by being tossed, and it won't count against him; his Move action would be spent positioning himself to land well.

(2) You'd bounce off and fall down (though not necessarily Prone- I'd let you spend a Move action in flight to land on your feet normally in the enemy's space)- if you hit the enemy, then it's a crazy fast impact for both of you. The Awesome Blow feat suggests that you should in fact take some damage similar to Falling damage, though given that you're striking the enemy at the end, the enemy should take the same damage you do. The best way to do this, IMO, is to roll effective "Falling" damage for the distance, and apply half to your Gnome and half to the enemy you struck.

(3) Acrobatics is the only reasonable skill for doing such a thing, though how you'd come up with the DC for such a check I have no real idea at present. I would also suggest that the Gnome might be allowed to make a Grapple combat maneuver to grab the enemy and not fall at all, just staying on the enemy (and incidentally becoming able to Full Attack the next round if he doesn't maintain the Grapple).

(4) Range on an improvised thrown weapon (which your Gnome would certainly be) is automatically 10 feet per increment, unless something else intervenes.

(5) For weapons that can launch your Gnome, the only ones that come to mind are Siege engines like Catapults and Trebuchets. But your GM may say otherwise, of course.
 

I always found the Goliath as broken as far as a race and did not allow it after experimenting with it, so no I never would have allowed the feat. As far as the enemy taking some damage it might take some, but consider the difference between a 150 lb enemy and the 5 lb gnome I would consider the gnome to take 90% of the damage. Someone took "tossing the dwarf" way too far on this one IMHO!
 

If I delayed my turn, the 7' tall Orc Fighter in the party picked me up and threw me at the enemy....

...Would I be able to do a full round attack because the ally would be responsible for my movement?

Well, I doubt the standard rules cover this, but this is how it would work under my house rules where 'throw enemy' is a standard combat maneuver and flying charges a fairly common stunt players try (although I've yet to have one actually throw the other one).

Assuming your friend threw you on target and you landed on your feet, then, "Yes.".

First, being thrown any distance causes damage equal to what you would take if you were thrown the maximum distance possible by the throw. So, if your friend hurls you full force, whenever you collide with something you'll take damage equal to the maximum distance that you could have been thrown. So, lets say your friend throws you 60', then regardless of whether the stunt is successful or how far you actually go you'll take damage as if you'd fallen 60'. This damage can of course be mitigated by a successful tumble check.

To throw you accurately, your friend must make a ranged touch attack on the target. If you are being thrown at a square, the target counts as a medium sized immobile object so base DC of the throw is 5. However, thrown shrunken gnome counts as an improvised weapon, and unless your friend has an ability that says otherwise this will mean a -4 penalty on the throw. Additionally, the range increment of a tiny thrown object is 10' for a medium sized creature, so if he were throwing you 60 feet then there would be an additional -10 penalty. So, it follows to throw a gnome accurately at a square 60' away is DC 19 - and the gnome is going to take under most systems 6d6 damage (though see my notes below).

If the throw is inaccurate, it scatters. To resolve point of impact, throw a 1d8 to determine direction and a 1d4-1 to determine the number of squares in that direction. However, the gnome never lands more than 5' behind the thrower and never beyond the maximum possible distance of the throw. If the throw was made at its maximum possible distance, use a 1d3 to determine direction of scatter in the direction of the thrower - the throw is always short in this case! If the to hit roll was a 1, I use a 1d6 to determine distance of scatter but that is very much optional (I also use fumbles in my game, so the players expect it). Note that a scattered throw may still very well leave you next to your intended target to allow for a full attack. A scattered attack may incidentally land in the same square of the target or a different target. I generally allow a DC 20 reflex save to avoid unaimed attacks like this, otherwise you got a lucky (or unlucky hit) and resolved it as aimed at the target (see below).

Once you arrive at your destination you must land or roll to your feet just as if you'd fallen. In my game, if you take no damage from the fall, you are automatically assumed to land on your feat. However, if you do take damage from the fall, rolling to your feet or otherwise fast standing requires a DC 25 Tumble check. If you fail, you are assumed to be prone in the square of your target.

...Would I be able to make a bite/claw/claw attack at the enemy before hitting the ground, or would I bounce off the enemy and fall down?

Depends. If you are thrown at the enemy or land in the enemies square, you resolve this as a Charge Attack. (In my game, leaping or flying charges are also automatically assumed to be made in the Offensive stance.) Thus, you would not be able to make a full attack. However, if the charge attack is successful, your enemy also takes bonus damage equal to the damage you suffer from the fall/impact with the exception that unless you are wearing heavy armor or have a natural AC of 8 or higher, you resolve as impact on a soft surface (-1 damage per die) regardless of whether the target resolves as impact with a soft surface.

If you are thrown to land in a square adjacent to the enemy, you may make your full attack as normal upon successfully landing.

However note that in either case, because you are tiny and therefore have no reach, you draw an attack of opportunity from your target.

...What would the range of throwing a tiny ally be?

Maximum range of an improvised thrown object is equal to the throwers reach + 5' times the maximum lift of the thrower divided by the weight of the object times 4. Objects weighing less than 1lb are assumed to weigh 1lb. This is a rather complicated formula I admit, but it produces pretty good results. A normal human can throw your 5lb gnome about 30 feet. If your friend has 18 strength, he can throw your 5lb gnome about 80 feet (5 + 5 * (300 / (5 * 4)). He can throw 50' stone about 10 feet, and a 1lb rock or a ball about 375 feet. That's not perfectly realistic, but its close enough for the purposes. Note also that I use special falling rules where objects of different sizes take different amounts of damage for falling - a tiny object for these purposes would take -2 damage on the dice (minimum zero). This revises the standard damage for falling 60' from 6d6 to 6d6-12 (avg. 10). This is important because if you are going to have the target take damage from the impact equal to the damage taken by the thrown object, you want to avoid the unrealism of having improvised throw weapons hit with the force of cannon shot unless they really were thrown with the force of a cannon shot. If you don't, you'll have players carrying sacks of rocks and beaning things as a primary strategy.

Alternately, you can compute maximum thrown range using standard range increments, but this will create problems for throwing say sacks of grain, chests, or medium size allies. But it should work ok for objects of the 'normal' size people throw (under 20lbs).

Also, can a sling launch a bullet weighting 4.375 lbs? If not a sling, any other weapon?

Yes, however it counts as throwing an improvised weapon and uses the above rules, since the sling wasn't really intended to hurl such a heavy stone. If the wielder was proficient with the sling (an exotic weapon under my rules), I'd give them a +2 bonus to effective strength for trying a stunt like this.
 
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I don't mean to say your way of seeing it is wrong or anyone's, I just play it differently. As long as we are all having fun, right? I just am more old school.
 

Well, I doubt the standard rules cover this, but this is how it would work under my house rules ...
Simply awesome, thank you for the time taken to consider my request. Your approach makes sense, and if I played under you, I'd wait a few more levels until I had the skill points and HP to pull this off.
I don't mean to say your way of seeing it is wrong or anyone's, I just play it differently. As long as we are all having fun, right? I just am more old school.
All good Brvheart! I've always appreciated the different play styles and therefore varied input I get on the forums here, it's part of what brings me back.
 

Simply awesome, thank you for the time taken to consider my request. Your approach makes sense, and if I played under you, I'd wait a few more levels until I had the skill points and HP to pull this off.

One of the down sides of being somewhat realistic and detailed is that a lot of times showy stunts just don't make a lot of sense. There are usually easier ways to be just as effective that don't involve high risk maneuvers where you can catastrophically fail. In the case of 'throw an ally', you are spending the invaluable action of two characters on a stunt that at best in going to be marginally more effective than a regular attack and is highly likely to go spectacularly wrong and waste both characters action. There are only a limited number of cases where this makes any sense at all, and most of them involve 'we have no other choice' or 'this is an absolute emergency'. Stunts make the most sense when you have an ally down or are otherwise under extreme time pressure. If you have to disrupt a full round casting or a coup de grace attack or an isolated PC has been staggered and is likely to be killed outright next round and there is no other plan that can work, it makes sense to risk everything. Otherwise, it doesn't.

Another problem is by the time the characters are really skillful enough to pull off this sort of thing, they don't need to. If you've got enough tumble to make it effective to throw you across a moat at an enemy archer, you probably also have enough jump to make the distance on your own. Or if your ally can throw you 80', chances are by a combination of skills and magical enhancement, you've got the ability to charge something 80' away anyway. If catapulting you over the heads of the wall of zombies to reach the necromancer makes sense, you probably have more than enough jump and tumble to pass through the zombies unscathed on your own. Recently a character used his Use Rope skill to lasso skeletons and drag them into a pit where they were dashed to pieces. Cool stunt, but at his level he could have just gone over and whacked the skeletons with much less fanfare. At some level, he was just showing off.

That isn't to say that it's always senseless to pull off a stunt, but there is a fine line between having rules that allow for stunts and having rules that make zany combat tricks virtually risk free buffs that players will attempt round after round after round. At some point, if it is too easy, it stops being cool and creative and starts being repetitive and lame.
 

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